Tektonics Ministry "J.P. Holding"/Robert Turkel

Quotable Quotes

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Below are a few illuminating statements from Mr. Robert Turkel, aka "J.P. Holding," professional Christian apologist. Particularly interesting portions of his comments are highlighted. Please note that this page is still under construction and is far from complete.

If you are aware of statements from "J.P. Holding" that you think would be appropriate for this page, please e-mail them to tekministry@aol.com with the subject line reading "quotes" and provide links to the pages where the quotes can be found. Quotes that cannot be verified will not be considered for inclusion on this page.


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?... (requires registration)

Tektonics Ministry: "One can surmise that [Holding] wants to keep the donations below $25,000 so that he does not have to publically reveal exactly what the money is used for, which probably includes groceries and mortgage payments."

Turkel: "So I want your money, but not TOO much of it, thanks."

(By the way, yeah...it DOES include groceries and mortgage payments...that's what a "salary" is usually for, when a non-profit pays its workers...)

(snip)

http://www.tektonics.org/doninst.html

"Tekton Apologetics Ministries, Inc. is a not-for-profit organization incorporated in the State of Florida on April 28, 2000. It is our personal desire to maintain the highest standards of fiscal responsibility and we will willingly provide a full accounting of all donations receved (sic) and of our expenditures upon request."


comment:

So feel free to contact Mr. Holding at jphold@earthlink.net to get a full accounting of the exact percentage of his donations that goes for food and housing.



http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?...(requires registration)

"It's quite clear that even you admit that 'honesty' works under the assumption that the recipient has a RIGHT to the truth. When they don't, the moral hierarchy shifts and it is patently absurd to call them 'lies' or 'deceptions' in a derogatory sense."


comment:

This is part of what Turkel wrote in an effort to defend his debate "strategies."



http://www.tektonics.org/brooksbonked.html

"Just paste that face on a few posters in the neighborhood, along with some writing samples. Maybe that will help pass you as one of Jerry's Kids."



comment:

Note that the term "Jerry's Kids" is used by Turkel as an insult. "Jerry's Kids" are children who are afflicted with muscular dystrophy, a muscle-wasting disease that can disable and kill children at an early age and has no known cure.



http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"By me, every day, every way, and his rear end has been scattered over more states than the Columbia wreckage."



comment:

The Columbia Space Shuttle disaster cost the lives of seven brave astronauts and was a national tragedy, yet Turkel uses the tragedy as the punchline in a joke.



http://the-anointed-one.com/oct06scr.htm

"Because nothing is a grater (sic) witness for Christ than causing others to get an instant mental image of Cowboy man-on-man backdoor action."


http://www.tektonics.org/af/annix.html

"Finally, it should be noted that while annihilationists admit that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are clearly tormented forever [Pinn.DFI, 257], and thus suffer eternal punishment, they will argue that those thrown into the lake of fire with them do not necessarily suffer the same eternal fate! Once again, this is obvious question-begging. There is no support in the text for the idea that others in the lake of fire will suffer any differently."


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

Doubting John: "JP, Where did you learn how to draw? That image looks like a 6 yr old did it."

"JP Holding": "I'll share your views with the Hollywood animator who said I could have made it in that business if I had wanted to. But really, it's your fault if you look like something a 6 year old would draw. " 7/20/2005


http://the-anointed-one.com/hold.htm

"I don't even care if you use my real name anymore -- had you kept up with my updates, you would know that that is no longer an issue for me." 8/7/2001


http://members.aol.com/bbu82/plea.htm

"We need Tekton full time. Mr. Walker's impotence and fish-flopping is plain evidence (only the latest!) of this ministry's effectiveness, of the Holy Spirit's movement through these pages. Please submit your testimony and help make full-time ministry a reality. Free my warrior side from its shackles, and let the destruction of strongholds begin in earnest."


http://www.ctm.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=85
(requires free registration to view)

"My my yes, we ARE important, and I have not a single illusion either. While you sit on your rear end defending the right to gather wives like stamps, Tekton has produced over 1500 articles in defense of critical issues of the Christian faith like the resurrection, the Trinity, and the atonement; it has answered an average of 100 emails a week for the past 5-6 years, many of them from desperately hurting people whose faith is in danger of being damaged or lost; Iíve had material published in major magazines, and the Tekton ministry has been endorsed by major names such as Lee Strobel himself, on a nationwide radio broadcast. Heck, just check this out:"

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/...

"The Secular Web, the leading atheist website, considers Tekton such a viable threat that my name is in there along with the likes of Paul Copan, William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, Peter Kreeft, C. S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Alvin Plantinga, R. C. Sproul, and Ravi Zacharias. The only other 'Internet apologist' listed is Glenn Miller of the Christian-thinktank."


comment:

Note the ego stroking.


http://www.tektonics.org/parody/Dishonesty.htm

"Yaaaaawwwwnnn....I know nothing of ego. Mine is dead."


http://www.tektonics.org/glennall02.html

"As a librarian I conducted classes on the use of the Internet, and I always warned my students that it was possible now for any yahoo with access to a computer -- even in a public library -- to sit down and within a few minutes have a site running selling magic tomato juice that cured cancer. No one would be there to stop them for weeks, and in the meantime they could get away with a hefty stash of financing from 'suckers' who took them for their word. The same thing happens, adjusted for context, with religious information, and Glenn's site is yet another example."



comment:

The irony is delicious.



http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_06.html

"Of course you don't have to 'sort through all this fine stuff' -- this 'fine stuff' is produced as a response to those trying to escape the crystal-clear clarity, trying to get out of the blazing sunshine, by manufacturing excuses and arguments based on thin air. As noted, 'freethinkers' have the unmatchable advantage of being able to throw any argument in the air without backup or investigation (just 'common sense') and claiming implicitly to be an authority. Those of us who are disciplined in our scholarship don't have that option."


http://web.archive.org/web/20040217120948/...
(Note: Written either by Turkel or Josh Brister)

"Finally, Lowder refers to Drange's argument (though I am told he has mixed this up with someone else's) that '...the mere fact of reasonable nonbelief in the world is evidence for the nonexistence of the Christian god.' I'll put it succinctly: After years of this sort of work, I find that there is no such thing as 'reasonable nonbelief.' The litany of excuses, wild speculations, and other absurdities ground out by skeptics and critics doesn't deserve the adjective 'reasonable.'"


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

"It's an example of exactly how Western society has become sick and anemic and worthless, trying to escape the judgment and scorn that it richly deserves." 9/9/04


comment:

This comment was made in reply to a poster on TWEB. The poster asked Turkel why he was so obnoxious and insulting to people there. Holding tried to justify his behavior by referring to something called the "challenge riposte" paradigm, which is cited in this Tektonics.org article. Here is an excerpt:

"We shall see that differing rules apply in a situation in which the venue is a public forum, as this site is. Now let us consult Malina and Rohrbaugh to see why."

"Many ancient societies (and we shall see below, certain modern social groups) engage in a process known as challenge-riposte. The scene of such processes is public venues in which two persons or groups have competing honor claims: '...the game of challenge-riposte is a central phenomenon, and one that must be played out in public.' [42] The purpose is for each party to try to undermine the honor, or social status, of the other in an exchange that 'answers in equal measures or ups the ante (and thereby challenges in return).' In the Gospels, Jesus 'evidences considerable skill at riposte and thereby reveals himself to be an honorable and authoritative prophet.'"

The TWEB poster contacted the author-Dr. Malina-whose work Turkel cited in his essay. Here is what the poster wrote to Dr. Malina:
"I'm hopeful I'm not being too presumptuous in contacting you here on such a trivial matter. It's a peeve, really, but I don't like bullies, esp those who claim a divine right to be such."

"There is an apologist(internet and some articles for Christian Research Journal) who cites your writing as justification for what reasonably appears to be abusive comportment with opponents. The only thing he actually cites is the last line in the following paragraph, taken from a short article."

"'Many ancient societies (and we shall see below, certain modern social groups) engage in a process known as challenge-riposte. The scene of such processes is public venues in which two persons or groups have competing honor claims: "...the game of challenge-riposte is a central phenomenon, and one that must be played out in public.[42]"'"

"He's educated, thorough, and really very clever at times but something wrong is lurking there. I can accept a little Schadenfreude but there is too much cruel-intent. The intellectual honesty of his apologetics is another point...but one I haven't the acumen to make."

...

"FYI: I am now an agnostic but I retain a fondness for Christianity. My wife is a sweetly devout voice, and with her, I don't wish to see it go away but rather become more noble."

This is what Dr. Malina wrote in reply:

"It sounds as though the person you refer to is using my description of behavior in the Mediterranean world of antiquity to sanction his behavior in the 21st century. If that is the case, then he is being silly. We live neither in the 1st century nor in the Mediterranean."

"People have been citing the bible for centuries in the name of some 'My Will Be Done' project (or religion). That some are doing this with my writings is no surprise."

In response to this embarrassing criticism, Turkel attacked Dr. Malina's statement, attacked the poster's comments and promptly closed the discussion thread-apparently in the hope that it would fade into obscurity.



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

"You repost them to make sure that the emotional impact on the irrational and gullible doesn't fade while I'm carving your guts out on the rational end. I got plenty of time, keep it up." 10/7/03


comment:

Note the use of the violent imagery, which is likely tied in to Turkel's view of himself as a holy warrior fighting for people's "souls."


http://www.ctm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=84

"And you? Youíre nothing but a sanctimonious ant with delusions of your own grandeur; youíre nothing but a modern day Hugh waving your swollen member around and knocking people over with it or else disgusting everyone by pointing to it and shouting to everyone to look at it."


http://www.ctm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=89

"In your arrogance you missed it; you were so busy waving your giant pee-pee around that you bonked yourself on the head with it and didnít even notice."


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s...

"Well, that's Crybaby's fault. He's an expert manipulator, and all I did was make him eat his own upchuck." 12/15/03


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s...

"How's your own upchuck taste?"

(snip)

"Upchuck taste good, Gargy?" 1/6/04


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

"Suit yourself, but you look funny standing in a pile of doo doo."


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29388

"My dog made a better agrument (sic) in the yard this morning! I'll skip all the repeated doggy doo...."


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

"...nanny nanny boo boo, stick your head in doo doo."


http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"For you, your smartest movement is a bowel movement."


http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_05_01.html

"A wise person once said that foul language is the recourse of those whose arguments lack force otherwise."


http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html

"But understand instead 'faith' as loyalty and 'unbelief' as disobedience."


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

"You'd be better off going through your daily life and learning to behave like a civilized human being who does not twist, contort, and smear what others say for personal advantage and comfort."


comment:

Hypocrisy alert.




comment:

The following quotations were taken from index pages on the Tektonics.org site. Turkel not only rejects that evolution occurs, but he actually believes that Genesis is literally true. He is a young earth creationist-like the people at the Answers in Genesis organization that he refers to below. Turkel believes that the Genesis creation stories are true, that the Adam and Eve story is true, that the Noah's Ark story is true, and that the earth and all forms of life on it are only a couple of thousand years old. Since Turkel devotes a goodly amount of his time to denigrating other people's intelligence, it is ironic indeed that he accepts these blatantly false ancient myths as undeniable historical truth.


http://www.tektonics.org/TK-GEN.html

Books to Read

The Discovery of Genesis by Ethel Nelson -- buy this book from Amazon.com -- how Chinese language characaters (sic) confirm the literal truth of Genesis -- see related item here.


http://www.tektonics.org/TK-E.html

Evolution
I'm no scientist, so expect mostly links here. I prefer to refer folks to my friends at Answers in Genesis. Others have recommended TrueOrigin.org and Access Research Network.


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

"You're a LOSER in life. That must hurt."


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

"Just take your licks and be resigned to it. You'll end up on the list of the Five Most Embarrassed, Unskilled, and Unaware of It. Up from Ten."


http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"Darn right I am. Responding, rebutting, lashing, destroying, making them cry and whine and get frustrated. You're victim #2,456, Bilbo...Sure has you running for cover, coward. Sure has you in denial. Sure has you refusing to enter the ring. Stay under your rock, burying beetle, the stench of dead meat becomes you."



comment:

The following few quotes are from e-mail exchanges Turkel had with fellow Christians.


Letterbox

question: "I have a couple of questions for you, the first of which is this -- how exactly did you come to be interested in apologetics, and what have been your biggest influences in getting to where you are now?"

"JP sez: It's hard to say. Being that I was always something of an anti-socialite who preferred a good book to the company of my 'peers' I think it was only to be expected that I'd engage some sort of academic pursuit. This and the fact that I have worked in libraries for almost my entire 13 years in the workforce are the most likely 'worldly' influences which got me here...that says nothing about 'other-worldly' influences, of course! ;-)"

question: "Also, what is it that possesses you to continually exchange arguments with the Farrell Tills of the world, despite the fact that they're clearly playing out of their league? I've exchanged e-mails with a number of skeptical folks on the creation-evolution issue, and it's very often frustrating because we both have our minds made up and it quickly degenerates from rational argumentation into haggling over definitions of terms or nitpicking about irrelevant details. Does this type of thing happen often in your dealings with skeptics, and if so, how do you handle it?"

"JP sez: My major motivation is to help people who don't realize that the likes of Till are the academic equivalent of a Disney character, but think that because they mouth off so loud, and sound authoritative, they must know something. A sad symptom of post-modernism! At the same time, I have a bit of a "mean streak" (heh heh) that approaches the whole process with the same tenor of a leopard approaching a mouse...."


comment:

Hypocrisy alert.


(snip)

"Re analytical skills: Here again, it may be part of my personal history. I was always encouraged to think for myself and question things, and go find out answers to things for myself to see if they were correct. (Being a son of a member of the 60s crowd may have been a boon in this regard!) At the same time, I had some 'odd' entertainment preferences...when most of the kids my age were reading magazines with pictures of rock stars, I was buying magazines with puzzles and word games in them. Got me teased out the wazoo, but most of those kids are in jail now. :-)"1999


comment:

Note the ego stroking.



http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_BOC.html

"One must face the fact that eternal punishment is taught in the Bible, and deal with it."


http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_BOC.html

"This argument asks: How can those who make it into eternal joy be happy knowing that the unsaved are locked forever into eternal torment? It's another heartbreaker, but one suggests that we will, at that point, see things exactly as God sees them -- and realize the justness of the condemnation."


http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/reply2jph.htm

question: "Can you think of any crime so horrendous that it would justify eternal, unrelenting torment, with no second chances ever being given, even if the criminal honestly repents and is completely forgiven by his victims?"
      "Yes (x) No ( )"

Turkel: "Aside from the misdirected and incomplete description of 'torment' (see link in 5 above), the matter is simply that before infinite holiness, ANY crime is horrendous enough to justify eternal and equitable response. When the yardstick is perfection, there is no 'second chance' -- and we would maintain as well, no person in eternal punishment who would want to honestly repent, but would keep their rebellious state intact." 2002


http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html

"The question remains: What on earth could possess otherwise intelligent and educated people to be so uncritical in their beliefs regarding the existence of Jesus? Here is my advice in the matter: If you have encountered people like this, I highly recommend that you provide a clear presentation of the Gospel, then leave them alone. It is a waste of time to deal with such people (except to the extent that they are deceiving others), we perform no service any time that we so much as imply that their views should be taken seriously. Their views are the result of a fallen and sinful human nature, of rampant egotism and arrogance, and nothing more."


comment:

Turkel is referring to those who believe that Jesus Christ is a copy of earlier godmen. As a fundamentalist Bible inerrantist, Turkel vehemently rejects this idea, but, interestingly enough, the first Christian apologists were well aware of the similarities between Jesus and the earlier godmen and believed that these parallels had to be intentional. They attributed the similarities to a satanic plot, or "diabolical mimicry." A more plausible explanation, of course, is that Jesus Christ was indeed modeled on earlier godmen. For more information about this topic, go here.



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

"It's interesting how challenges to put up or shut up are spun out into 'dominance issues' or 'ego'. Yes, I admit it: I have a desire to crush the ignorant who take life from others. I guess the police have 'dominance issues' too...as do firefighters, editorialists, and journalists....and we should always accuse them of such to reassure us that we aren't deficient in the intellect and knowledge department after all..."


http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/mcfall/1.html

"If you're in hellfire, that's your choice. Getting disturbed about it won't help, but at least if you want to remain stubborn we can keep you from dragging others with you....deceive others into jumping into hellfire with you? I have a REAL problem with that!"


http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"As if you gave a crap how any Christian behaved, based on your own emasculated standards and a strawman Jesus. No, your stock in trade is lying, deception, ripping faith from others to comfort yourself, and playing the victim, Crybaby."


comment:

By promoting Christianity, Turkel thinks that he is saving people from hell. In his own mind, he is a heroic figure.



http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_D12_TFH.html

"Here's a little Freudian slipknot of my own in reply: I have stated previously that with the proposition of the Christ myth there always comes an extreme egomania and an inability to admit one has been wrong."


comment:

Irony meter just blew up.



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

question: "Maryís family, and really, entire town must have accepted AT HER WORD ONLY that God had made her pregnant, not some man she had been sleeping with. Now I admit that I have an anti-supernatural bias, but really, anyone that would believe this story, is flat out gullible."

Turkel: "Anyone who would think you were capable of speaking with authority on this subject is even more gullible that you imagine! The social conditions of the period were such that a girl like Mary would be under the constrant watchcare of her guardians -- precisely in order to avoid the scandal and disgrace of an illegitimate birth! That means that inevitably, her pregnancy WOULD be investigated, and man after man would be examined and rule out. So much for 'gullible'! Now why don't you explain to us how your thesis is falsifiable and therefore actually worth consideration? If God actually did make her pregnant, how would your (guffaw) worldview be able to admit it?"


comment:

Apparently Turkel believes that a claim that a woman was impregnated by a god-a claim found in an anonymous ancient story filled with similarly ridiculous claims-is perfectly reasonable, and that those who are skeptical of the claim have the responsiblity to disprove it.

In his comments, Turkel's displays his hypocrisy. Turkel asks, "Now why don't you explain to us how your thesis is falsifiable and therefore actually worth consideration?" Turkel has been asked just this question in regard to his foundational "thesis" that the Bible is inerrant:

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/holding2.html

"In Part 1 of this reply, I accused Mr. Holding and his inerrantist ilk of being trapped in a mindset that will simply not allow the Bible to be wrong, no matter how obvious the error or inconsistency, and posed them the following question: 'What would it take to convince you that you were wrong? What, hypothetically, would the Bible have to say to be contradictory? Can you give an imaginary example of two discrepant verses that you would accept as impossible to resolve?'"

"To my total lack of surprise, Mr. Holding's answer to these questions completely sidesteps the thrust of them; he totally ignores the latter two and replies to the first with a response that is essentially, 'More than you've provided.' This is exactly as we should expect from one who has made up his mind and doesn't want to be confused by the facts. He has set his burden of proof infinitely high, so that no evidence real or imaginary could ever meet it - whatever any skeptic poses to him, his answer will always be 'That isn't good enough.'"

Turkel nevers provides an example of what would falsify his "thesis."



http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"You have yet to do more than posture, kick, scream, whine, and pass gas, as if you were some worthwhile expert in minerals who could respond to an expert like Shanks who has been examining artifacts since before you pooped in your first diaper. Meanwhile talk to the gem experts, the carver, and the geologist. A road gang that beats the crap out of you."


comment:

What is extremely humorous about this rant and countless ones like it in the linked page is that Turkel was using them in a quixotic effort to defend the idea that the so-called "James Ossuary" was actually the burial urn of the brother of Jesus. However, the ossuary was not the burial urn of Jesus' brother but was instead an ossuary with a forged inscription on it. The claim that the ossuary was genuine was highly questionable from the start, yet Turkel ignored this and worked himself into a frenzy defending the ossuary as a genuine biblical artifact.

Here is a recent news article on the "James Ossuary."

Here are some comments from Farrell Till on Turkel's defense of the "James Ossuary."



http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"...I beat him to a pulp..."


http://www.tektonics.org/brooksbonked.html

"These guys, if they were plopped down in the ANE, would get a spear run through their guts because they offended everyone just asking where the bathroom was."


http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"You're nothing but a grease-stained, filthy, runny-nosed burger flipper at a fast food joint who rapes popular news articles for rumors and slander that give you cheap jollies."


http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"No. I am expert with multi-dimensional thinking and also very good at detecting piles of smelly, reeking bulldada coming from the mouths of Saury little losers who use obfuscation to deceive the gullible and cover their embarrassment at having overstated their case and being caught at it...My brain ate yours, spat it out, kicked it around, blew it up with explosives, and scattered it to the four corners of the world."


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

"Since you merely play psychology games of this sort, and have been exposed as a manipulator, it's little wonder I was able to get you sucked in. You're an amateur at this, Gargamel. Prison inmates are far better at it. Seeing through blatant manipulations, word games, and bluff assertions like the above are just another day at the office. Sorry -- a former fundy preacher who used the same tactics on himself to make excuses for problems he could not solve, is no match for JPH in the analysis department."


http://www.tektonics.org/parody/Dishonesty.htm

"Yaaaaawwwwnnn....I know nothing of ego. Mine is dead."


http://web.archive.org/...

"As far as the 'mind already made up' issue - that is absolutely correct! Hopefully, the whole reason the non-professional evangelist is wanting to witness is because he KNOWS JESUS CHRIST personally. Their mind IS made up - and why else would you witness?!? The personal experience of Christ is so much more convincing than academic and intellectual discussions!" 2001


http://christianwebsite.com/...CWS Talk! > The Lobby > Open Forum > John 1:18

"I like the analogy of myself to a hurricane..."

"Sweet stuff. Hits the nail right on your head. :D Incidentally with over 800 articles on my site, over 1500 books read, my 'armchair' is one of those types made of oxblood leather; in the meantime, ye who sit on the stool in your undershirt burping and spilling potato chips on the floor hasn't got your first credit." 9/6/02


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s...

"You did lie, if you said what you said you did, and if you don't want to be called one, don't misrepresent my position."



comment:

Hypocrisy alert.



http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"It's been demonstrated at every turn, corner, square, circle, and moment that all you do is mouth off in ignorance, picking and choosing reports you like and then concocting rationalized defenses and shifting burdens of proof to save your bacon."


comment:

Hypocrisy alert.



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s...

"I am finding you an extraordinary waste of otherwise productive time. Loaded questions like 'Are you acknowledging defeat?' are transparent manipulation attempts by you, and, along with postures like 'that's not in the Bible, bah' make you an opponent unworthy of someone of my caliber."


comment:

As you can see, Turkel is quite impressed with himself and is happy to let people know it.



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?...

Islamic Gorilla: "Scholarly argument? I haven't seen you actually make any yet."

Turkel: "No need to unsheath any real weapons here when all there are is ants to step on." 1/1/04


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php...

"I took (name removed) to heck and back and laid him out like a gutted fish on this one ages ago." 4/28/03


http://the-anointed-one.com/hold.htm#f

question: "Would you go on war raids with specific orders to kill women and children?"

Turkel: "Yup. Pass me my Hackenstabber 3 Iron, boy." 4/4/01


http://the-anointed-one.com/sauron.htm

"It's also a debate where you're being slammed, hammered, beaten to a pulp, whipped, canned, processed, poured out, and horribly mutilated."


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s...

"Just admit you have no answer and save yourself decades of painful embarassment and the huge zit of being reamed by me further from the face of your existence." 12/30/03


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