I have started a new response page, finally. The gentleman who starts off this responses page apparently didn't think the Bible supported slavery. When I provided him with the appropriate Bible quotes, he then asked how I can say slavery is really wrong if I think evolution is true. You have surely heard this boner before and I hope to examine it with this gentleman in detail, but it obviously is just a desperate argumentative gambit: when grotesque Bible verses are quoted to Christians, they usually respond by claiming that non-Christians don't have the ability to make moral judgments in the first place. The idea, apparently, is to put skeptics on the defensive and to change the direction of the discussion. This approach helps Christians to avoid delving any more deeply into the cruelties, atrocities and moral obscenities of the Bible. Stay tuned to see how this discussion develops.
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Subj: Slavery
Date: 7/29/99 3:27:41 PM EST
From: Mark
To: Tekministry@aol.com ('Tekministry@aol.com') I have read the portions of the Bible that deal with Slavery... but I don't see how the words SUPPORT it. Please let me know why you think so. Also, concerning your statement "Promises to torture billions of people for eternity for their opinions".. I guess you are "emotionally" referring to hell. I dont know if we can comprehend exactly what hell will be like... but it appears it is separate from where God hangs out. If GOD (definition of "right/wrong") does exist, and if GOD gave everyone on this earth a choice, and the choice is: Believe in Me and you can hang out with me, OR dont Believe in Me and you will be separated from me then, if hell does exist (separation from God), each person will be able to claim what his/her choice was. This "choice" is evident in other areas of our lives, For example: If a LAW (man's definition of "right/wrong") does exist, and if the LAW gave everyone on this earth a choice, and the choice is: Dont STEAL a car so you can remain free, OR steal a car and you will be separated from society (i.e. put in Jail) then, each person will be able to claim what his/her choice (i.e. freedom or jail) Let me know your thoughts, (name and address withheld upon request)
Subj: your e-mail to the CBBB web page
Date: 8/1/99 2:44:31 AM EST
From: BBu84
To: XXXXX@blank.comMr. XXXXX, Thank you very much for your e-mail. I appreciate your comments, but of course I do not agree with them. First of all, the Bible does support slavery. Please read the following statements from the Christian god regarding slavery: "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your bretheren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness." Christian god-Leviticus 25:44
"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money." Christian god-Exodus 21:20
And slavery is supported in the New Testament as well. Jesus uses slavery in his parables, and never thinks to decry it as an unjust and inhumane institution: "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ...." Ephesians 6:5
"Let all who are under the yoke slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brethren; rather they must serve all the better since those that benefit by their service are believers and beloved." 1 Timothy 6:1
"Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect..." Titus 2:9
"Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes...." Jesus-Luke 12:37
"No servant can serve two masters..."Jesus-Luke 16:13
"A servant is not greater than his master." Jesus-John 15:20
"And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating."Jesus-Luke 12:47
So I do not agree with your statement that the Bible does not support slavery-it does. And the Christian Church owned slaves and used the Bible to justify slavery for centuries. I know you will now likely say that the type of slavery advocated in the Bible was really was not all that bad, it was just a handy form of paying off debts. But this is not what is portrayed in the Bible. The biblical god says that slaves may be beaten to death without punishment to the slave owner, and that they may be owned "forever," passed down from generation to generation in a family. That is not some type of debtor's servitude, it is your old-style ball, chain and whip slavery. As far as the biblical god not actively torturing people for their opinions, again, I beg to differ. The Christian hell is not merely a "separation" from the Christian god, it is portrayed as a place of active torture, as a "furnace," as "fire," as a place where people will be "burned." I am sure you remember Jesus' colorful parable about the rich man in Hell begging for water. And who created the Christian hell? Why, God, of course! The Christian god set this system up and has complete control over who will go to Heaven and who will be tortured for eternity. In fact, this god knows the future, so he knew before he created anything or anyone who would end up weeping and gnashing their teeth in Hell. Since most people are not Christians, God apparently created most people solely to be tortured in hell. Think about it. If God did not want people in hell, if he thought it was wrong, all he would have to do is snap his fingers and they would be elsewhere. And yet he chooses not to do this. He created Hell, he created people to go to Hell, and he lets them suffer there even though it is fully within his power to prevent them from suffering there. Having said all this, I, of course, do not actually believe in your god, in Heaven or Hell. I think the whole concept is just a clumsy form of thought control, a fable to prevent Christians from examining their belief system too closely. Here are some New Testament quotes about Hell and eternal punishment for your enjoyment. "...but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come." Jesus-Matthew 12:32
"He who believes and who is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."Jesus-Mark 16:16
"The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."Jesus-Matthew 13:49
"...he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Jesus-John 3:18
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of god rests upon him." Jesus-John 3:36
"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." Jesus-John 15:6
Have a nice day. Brooks
Subj: RE: your e-mail to the CBBB web page
Date: 8/2/99 2:33:51 PM EST
From: Mark
To: Tekministry@aol.com ('Tekministry@aol.com'), XXXXX@blank.com
Brooks, Thanks for taking the time to reply to my e-mail. I must confess that I was bored on Thursday, so I sent out about 20 emails to people on that web page. I look forward to attempting to give answers to some of your concerns. Please be patient! I actually have 9 emails that I got similar to yours that I got back from other people. It may take a week (or at the most 2 weeks) to get to your set of comments/questions. I made a "deal" with my wife that I will only spend a max of 1 hour per day to "think" about these things. Again, give me a little time. If I dont get back to you within 2 weeks, you can email me and give me grief. As long as I am making you wait... perhaps I can give you a question to ponder in the mean time. The question is: "Is Slavery wrong, and if it is, WHY?". It appears from your writing that you feel Slavery is morally wrong. And if the Bible supports slavery that I should ignore the Bible. Have I mis-interpreted what you have written? I've got a 6 year old son, and a 4 year old daughter. If they come to me 10 years from now and ask "Is Slavery wrong, and if it is WHY?" What should I tell them? As I said earlier, I will respond to your comments about what the Bible says about Slavery within the next 2 weeks. Here is my interpretation (please let me know, your interpretation) of the "Evolution Model's" answer to my question. According to evolution, there is no such thing as Right/Wrong, there is only survival (I have seen numerous scientists that have stated this opinion). If that is true, the simple answer is that Slavery is not Right, and Slavery is not Wrong. In fact, back in the 1860's and 1870's when Darwinism started to gain in popularity, Slavery and genocide were advocated as OK, and DESIRABLE. Why? Because "masters" obviously had the genetic makeup for a higher rate of survival than the "weak slaves". If the evolution model is the source your truth, do you agree that Slavery is not actually wrong? How about stealing? Is'nt it true, that I can go out tommorow and steal a car? If my genetic makeup is such that I have evolved an intellect, where I can go thru life and contantly steal things, and not get caught... perhaps I have evolved to the next higher form of life? Let me know what you think. Thanks,Mark
Date: 8/3/99 8:27:55 PM EST
From: BBu84
To: XXXXX@blank.com Dear Mr. XXXXXX, I will respond to you latest e-mail regarding slavery and morality and evolution. Right now, though, I just wanted to ask if you minded having your name and e-mail on the response page I am putting up on my web site. If not, I will simply replace your name and e-mail addresses with something like "XXXX" or "name withheld." I have already put up a response page with you name and e-mail left out, so let me know if you want me to leave it that way or not. I have, in the past, just kept people's name anonymous, but starting now I will give people the option of having their names kept in the e-mails. The new page is located here: http://the-anointed-one.com/bbu84/biblicalstupidity/responses5.htm#Chr Have a good one, Brooks
Subj: your e-mail to the CBBB web site
Date: 8/12/99 0:34:57 AM EST
From: BBu84
To: XXXXX@blank.com Mark, Thanks for responding to my last e-mail, if only to let me know you will give me a more meaty response later. I think I will allow you to respond to my first e-mail before commenting on questions you brought up in your second note. Feel free to take your time to respond. Sincerely, Brooks
Subj: FW: I Guess You Are Not Willing to Wait (Slavery dialogue)
Date: 8/19/99 4:54:42 PM EST
From: XXXXX@blank.com (XXXXX)
To: XXXXX@blank.com ('XXXXX@blank.com'), Tekministry@aol.com ('Tekministry@aol.com') Hello Brooks. Sorry I have been away so long, I have been on vacation for the last week. I noticed that you did not post my last Email on your WebSite. I have included it here to start with, and then go into my rebuttal of your evidence for Slavery. Please post both of these Emails on your WebSite so the visitors to your Website can view the entire content of our discussions. Again, my response to your original concerns follows the email that was sent on 8/4/99. Thanks for your time and patience. Mark
-----Original Message----- From: Mark
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 2:02 PM
To: 'Tekministry@aol.com'
Subject: I Guess You Are Not Willing to Wait (Slavery dialogue) As I said in my previous EMail, I will respond to your "challenges" to the Bible's view on Slavery. I am not trying to "avoid" the difficult passages that you have RIGHTLY brought out into the open. I did "challenge" your "Truth Source (Evolution)" on the issue of Slavery... as you also "challenged" my "Truth Source(Bible)". Would you feel more comfortable if I do not challenge your "Truth Source"? YOU MAKE THE CHOICE, we can do either of the following options for this dialogue: Option #1. You can challenge my Truth Source, and I will attempt to answer your challenges, AND I will challenge your Truth Source, and you can set me straight.OR Option #2. You can challenge my Truth Source, and I will attempt to answer your challenges, and I will NOT BE ALLOWED to challenge your Truth Source. Please let me know which you choose.Also, based on the fact that you feel I am "avoiding" answering your questions, when in fact I asked for some time, I would prefer that you NOT list my Email on your website. I'm sure you can understand why... if I get 15, or 20 people all presenting challenges at the same time, then I won't be able to get to your challenges, and we all know what that has gotten me so far. Have a great day, I look forward to your response, Thanks. -----------------------------------------------------------------
New Email with rebuttal to Slavery evidence included:
----------------------------------------------------------------- Brooks, You have given me 9 Biblical references, that YOU feel support slavery. I will attempt to refute those references. However, I don't agree with your technique of... quoting 9 verses in the Bible, and then making a blanket statement concerning the Bible's view on slavery. Would you agree that you should read the entire book, to get the ENTIRE picture, before coming to a conclusion? I would propose that the OVERALL message of the Bible is against slavery. Since you have given 9 verses from the Bible that you claim support slavery, I will give 9 verses from the Bible that I feel are against slavery (BUT anyone that wants to make a worthwhile decision, should not just read our 18 verses!, he/she should instead read the entire Bible). Also, since I have attempted to refute your 9 verses... please refute the 9 verses that I have included that I say are AGAINST SLAVERY. Thanks, and have a great day. VERSES THAT BROOKS CLAIMS SUPPORT SLAVERY (My refutation follows each): 1. Leviticus 25:44 - Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly... Refute Leviticus 25:44 - READ FURTHER AND YOU WILL SEE "he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him: 49An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself." READ FURTHER AND YOU WILL SEE "" `Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee" ALSO SEE Exodus 21:2 ""If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything Brooks, I've got to admit that this is a toughie taken out of context... you were very WISE to put it first. My best defense would be that the Slavery of year 4000 BC, and 0030 AD was not the same as Slavery of the year 1865 AD. You have stated that the Slavery advocated in the Bible was the "old-style ball, chain, and whip slavery (i.e. 1865 type of slavery). HOWEVER as you can see by reading further, SLAVES COULD REDEEM (redeem means to LIBERATE) THEMSELVES. or the slave could have a relative REDEEM THEM. And to top it all off, when the year of Jubilee came around, ALL the slaves and their children were set free. Are you telling me that the slaves of 1865 had these options? Please provide some evidence that the slaves of 1865 had these types of options. THE POINT IS... SLAVERY OF 4000 BC and 0030 AD and 1865 AD are VASTLY DIFFERENT! 2. Exodus 21:20 - If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Refute Exodus 21:20 - Another toughie. What I can say is these "rules" were probably given in approximately 4000 BC. It is plausible that in 4000 BC, slaves were routinely beaten to death. And when they died it was no big deal. THIS VERSE SAYS "HE MUST BE PUNISHED!". This was probably a very RADICAL statement in 4000 BC. God has revealed his truth over time. An example of this concept can be seen in the following from the New Testament. In this case, Jesus says that divorce was allowed in Moses time, because men could not yet handle a more radical solution (i.e. no divorce allowed) Examples of where God, "eases" mankind into the TRUTH: *Mark 10:5- "Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3"What did Moses command you?" he replied. 4They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." 5"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," *Matthew 5:21 - "21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder,A and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherB will be subject to judgment. - OLD DAYS... If you MURDER you will be judged - NEW DAYS... If you are ANGRY you will be judged I think those boys back in 4000BC had it a little easier than us in 1999AD, dont you agree? 3. Ephesians 6:5 - Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. 9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. Refute Ephesians 6:5 - If you read further past your verse... you see the words: "you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and THERE IS NO FAVORITISM WITH HIM." In other words, GOD is in authority over masters and slaves, and HE (GOD)SHOWS NO FAVORITISM. A few synonyms for the word "favoritism" include: partiality, unfair preference, and preferential treatment. IF God shows no favoritism, and is impartial, and does not give unfair preference, and does not give preferential treatment... then that indicates that he would not condone/support slavery. In addition, I think you are missing the point of this passage. I think the main point he is making in this passage concerns "WORKING DILIGENTLY". It seems clear that Paul is encouraging responsibility and integrity in the slave/master relationship. To me this verse is advocating how to work for your boss. For example, I don't always agree with what my boss says, and I sometimes don't like the way he/she treats me... BUT God wants me to work hard for my boss no matter what!!! 4. 1 Timothy 6:1 - All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered Refute 1 Timothy 6:1 - Again, the point here is not to support slavery. The point is to be a GOOD WORKER. Why? So that people see that dedication, and say "Why is this slave working so hard?" He is working hard to promote God's name and his teachings. If the slave did not work hard, and in fact tried to "screw-over" his master, this would reflect badly on the slave's true leader (God). 5. Titus 2:9 - Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. Refute Titus 2:9 - Thanks for pointing out this reference. This is exactly the same as #4 above. Again, as stated in #4 and here in Titus, this passage is not condoning slavery, it is USING slavery to make a point about the true character of God. Let me use common sense to make some educated guesses here about what this passage is saying: - slaves, probably did not want to be slaves - slaves since they did not want to be slaves, probably did not like their masters - since slaves did not like their masters, they probably were not out to please them - THIS VERSE SAYS... PLEASE THEM - since slaves did not like their masters, it seems plausible that they might talk back to their masters - THIS VERSE SAYS... DONT TALK BACK, DO WHAT THEY SAY - since slaves did not like their masters, it seems plausible that they might steal from their masters - THIS VERSE SAYS... DONT STEAL FROM THEM So the question is... why does God say these things... for the same reason that he says "to turn the other cheek when you are hit"!!!!! because people will see that GOD IS ATTRACTIVE and can make a GOOD difference in people's lives. As a side note, God is obviously not advocating "hitting" when he says to "turn the other cheek", do you agree? 6. Luke 12:37 - "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 35"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. 39But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." 41Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?" 42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, `My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Refute Luke 12:37 - 12:47. This is a big, complicated passage, but it does not support slavery. It USES master/slave relationships to explain WHAT GOD EXPECTS FROM HIS PEOPLE. My opinion of what this passage is saying is: - We must be ready to SERVE God. Why? Because when we serve God, God serves us and will make our lives better (see "I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.) GOD IS DOING THE SERVING HERE! - We should get ready to SERVE God now. Why? Because we dont know when God is going to need us (see " 39But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him)- We will be rewarded if we SERVE God. See ("43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions) - We will NOT be rewarded if we squander the gifts/responsibility that God has given us. This is blatantly evident from the last sentence in this passage. The last sentence is a summary of Luke 12:35-48. See ("That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. NOTE HERE!!!! From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." 7. Luke 16:13 - "13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." 14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight." Refute Luke 16:13 - Again here he is talking about SERVING GOD... not condoning slavery. His warning deals with letting MONEY get control of our lives instead of letting GOD control our lives. This is especially evident from further reading (RIGHT AFTER YOUR VERSE)... See "14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight." 8. John 15:20 - "18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember the words I spoke to you: `No servant is greater than his master.'B If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Refute John 15:20 - Here Jesus is saying that HE is the MASTER, and Christians that follow him are SERVANTS OF JESUS. He makes this point, to emphasize that fact that if people hate Jesus, they will also hate Christians that follow Jesus. 9. Luke 12:47 Refute Luke 12:47 see #6 above, this verse is in the same passage. VERSES THAT MARK CLAIMS ARE AGAINST SLAVERY (Brooks refutation has been asked for): 1. Galatians 3:28 - ". 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If there is NO Slave or Free, this indicates that all people are equal. How does this verse fit into your Slavery Advocating Theory? 2. Romans 2:11 - "11For God does not show favoritism." It says GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM. Are you going to tell me that Slavery does not condone favoritism? How does this verse fit into your Slavery Advocating Theory? 3. II Peter 1:5-7 - "5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. If the Bible says people are supposed to show BROTHERLY KINDNESS... How does this verse fit into your Slavery Advocating Theory? 4. Luke 6:31 - "31Do to others as you would have them do to you. DO TO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU!!! You have stated that "The Biblical God says that slaves may be beaten to death" You have stated that the Bible supports "old-style ball, chain, and whip slavery". The Bible says "Do to others as you would have them do to you"... Are you saying that YOU, would like to be beaten to death? Are you saying that YOU, would like to wear a Ball and Chain? Are you saying that YOU, would like to be whipped? PLEASE help me! How does this verse fit into your Slavery Advocating Theory? 5. Romans 13:9-10 - " . 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"A and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."B 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. How does this verse fit into your Slavery Advocating Theory? 6. John 15:17 - "17This is my command: Love each other. How does this verse fit into your Slavery Advocating Theory? 7. Galatians 5:14 - ". 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself" How does this verse fit into your Slavery Advocating Theory? 8. Col 3:11 - "9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. How does this verse fit into your Slavery Advocating Theory? 9. Col 3:22-4:1 - "22Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism. How does this verse fit into your Slavery Advocating Theory? Have a Great Day, Mark
Subj: Re: FW: I Guess You Are Not Willing to Wait (Slavery dialogue)
Date: 9/4/99 12:30:48 PM EST
From: BBu84
To: XXXXX@blank.com Dear Mr. XXXXX, In your first e-mail to me you stated that you did not see how the Bible supported slavery. You also tried to distance God from any responsibility for Hell. In my response to you, I showed you several instances where the Bible does support slavery and I explained that Hell would be the sole responsibility of God. In your next e-mail you asked me why I would see slavery as being wrong if I believe in evolution. In your following letter you asked me to choose between arguing about "Truth Sources" and having certain areas off-limits. I don't know what it is that you are asking me to choose between but I think we should just keep things simple by discussing one topic at a time. We can debate anything you want to debate, you can ask me anything you like, but let's stick to one subject per e-mail, if at all possible. Perhaps later we can discuss evolution, right and wrong, or you can try to tell me that the Christian god has nothing to do with people suffering eternally in Hell. For now I will deal with this idea you have that the Bible does not support slavery. You tried to refute the first pro-slavery quote I provided by saying that slaves could be redeemed or freed in the year of jubilee. However, you are misreading Leviticus. There is a clear distinction made between slaves and servants, who are not foreigners but Israelites who have fallen into poverty. Let's read though the passage again, shall we? "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness." The section dealing with redemption in the year of jubilee does not refer to these foreign slaves but to "servants," the Israelites who have hired themselves out because of poverty. Leviticus 25 39 reads: "And if your brother becomes poor beside you, and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: he shall be with you as a hired servant and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of jubilee; then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own family. For they are my servants, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves." Notice the distinction between "servants" and "slaves" Nowhere does God say anything about slaves being redeemed. The reason is that foreign slaves could be owned "forever, " as per Leviticus 25:46. Why would God say that slaves could be owned forever, and then immediately refute himself by asserting that they could be freed in the year of jubilee? Well, God doesn't contradict himself, he carefully delineates the difference between servants and slaves, Israelites and foreigners. You quote Exodus 21:2 to support your position, but Exodus 21:2 clearly refers to a "Hebrew servant" not a foreign "slave." Please try to be a little more discerning in your reading of the Bible, okay? The second biblical quote supporting slavery that you try to refute reads as follows: "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money." Christian god-Exodus 21:20 The version you provided varied significantly from the quotation I provided, which comes from the RSV. Your quotation substitutes "if the slaves stands up after a day or two," for "if the slave survives a day or two." There is a significant difference in meaning between these two phrases, wouldn't you agree? Which version of the Bible are you using and why are you not willing to respond to the specific quotation I am providing? Inquiring minds want to know. Based on the RSV quote, a man may kill his slave and not be punished. The key thing here is that the slave not die during or immediately after the slave-owner administered pummeling. Immediate death of the slave would result in punishment-I don't know what the punishment would be. A fine? However, if the slave owner severely beats and terminally cripples the slave and she somehow manages to cling to life for 24 hours before expiring, the slave owner is free and clear in God's eyes-"for the slave is his money." Is my interpretation wrong? How do you interpret this RSV quote? The third quote supporting slavery which you tried to refute came from Ephesians and admonishes slaves to be obedient to their masters, with fear and trembling. You claimed that just beyond this passage God is shown to be impartial, fair and just because he views slave holders and slaves equally. You are missing the forest for the trees and not responding to the quote itself, which clearly supports the institution of slavery. Whether God is said to view slave owners and slaves equally is meaningless if the practice of slavery itself is never condemned. Timothy 6:1 also supports slavery. It is pointless to pretend that it doesn't. The same is true of the Titus quotations. Saying that the verses are being used to say something else, that they have some sort of metaphorical meaning above and beyond the plain English, does not in any way erase the fact that they endorse and support slavery. The rest of the passages are from Jesus. In all of them, Jesus is using the master-slave relationship to emphasize the type of relationship human beings have to endure with God. Throughout the New Testament, in various ways, Jesus explains that human beings have to worship and obey God much like slaves, or they "shall received a severe beating" and worse. The question that is never asked by Christians such as yourself is this: why in the world would Jesus-who is supposedly the ultimate source of everything glorious, righteous and just-why oh why would Jesus not once attempt to denounce slavery itself? Don't you think Jesus would have done this, if he was actually God Himself? Doesn't the fact that Jesus clearly endorses slavery with his parables and metaphors make you the least bit nauseous? After you finished responding to all the various quotations I provided, you then listed nine biblical quotations which you apparently feel invalidate my contention that the Bible supports slavery. These quotations included 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' 'Do unto other as you would have them do unto you,' 'There is neither Jew or Greek, slave nor free..., 'God does not show favoritism' 'Love each other,' etc. None of the quotations you provided contained the words "slavery is wrong" or "don't put people into slavery" or "free your slaves immediately you sick, barbaric cretins." Nowhere in the Bible does it say that slavery is wrong. All the quotations in the Bible dealing with slavery support it, and this is precisely because the ancient people who wrote the Bible saw nothing wrong with it. Of course the Bible has some thoughtful sayings in it, and some marginally helpful advice. But this does not erase all the horrible, twisted nonsense and cruelty that fills its pages as well. In a book the size of the Bible, you can find quotations to support virtually any position on any issue you could imagine or invent. You can find quotations that support capital punishment for innocent mistakes or completely innocuous actions, and you can find quotations admonishing forgiveness and turning the other cheek for injustices. You can pick out passages which celebrate sexuality and you can select passages which treat sexuality of any kind as the blackest of sins. Ezekiel 18:20, a direct quote from God, reads: "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father...." But in Exodus 20:5, God states that "...I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me." All of this shows that the Bible is contradictory and that, by selectively quoting it, a person can use it to support virtually any position on any topic that can be dreamed up. Why else would so many different sects of Christians be able to use the Bible to support their vastly differing and mutually exclusive versions of Christianity? The fact remains that whenever and wherever slavery is mentioned in the Bible, there is never, not once, a condemnation of the practice. The closest the Bible writers come to condemning it is when they write in Leviticus 25:" You may bequeath them (foreigners) to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness." This is an admission that lifelong slavery is "harsh" but not an acknowledgment that it is wrong. So, as I said before, the Bible supports slavery. Have a wonderful weekend. Brooks
Subj: Last Slavery Exchange
Date: 9/9/99 11:50:15 AM EST
From: XXXXX@blank.com (XXXXX)
To: Tekministry@aol.com ('Tekministry@aol.com') Brooks, Thanks for posting ALL our emails. Please post this LAST one also. I compliment you for posting my opposing arguement, because it will show that there are counter arguments to your postition. What have we accomplished? You still believe that the Bible supports slavery, and I don't believe that the Bible supports slavery. How have we arrived at our decisions? You have weighed the Biblical evidence, and I have weighed the Biblical evidence and come to different conclusions. The question is, who is correct? Ultimately, EACH PERSON will weigh the evidence about slavery (and other issues), and determine what he/she believes the TRUTH to be. However, just because each person must make his/her own decision, does NOT mean that there is not a correct answer. On a final note... It appears that you would be more comfortable if the Bible had the EXACT words... "Slavery is Wrong", I come to this conclusion based on YOUR following quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "None of the quotations you provided contained the words "slavery is wrong" or "don't put people into slavery" or "free your slaves immediately you sick, barbaric cretins." Nowhere in the Bible does it say that slavery is wrong." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The problem with your "word smithing" can be seen in OUR DEBATE. Let's look at the 3 words "Slavery is Wrong": **SLAVERY - You and I have differed on what SLAVERY means, I say it was not like the 1850's slavery, you say it was. Here we can see that the definition of the WORD slavery is debateable. **IS - You would think that the word "IS" would be easy to define. However, we have the evidence of a prominent politician (Clinton) who recently said... "It depends on what your definition of the word IS, IS". Based on this brillant example of word smithing, we can rest assured that even the word IS, is up for debate. **WRONG - And lastly the word WRONG. This word historically has been debated like no other. My opinion, based on the problems with word smithing that occur in this world is... GOD decided to make it PERFECTLY CLEAR, and cover ALL BASES (not just Slavery) with the following command. Nobody can WEASEL out of the directive here. You ignored my challenge on this before, I ask you to consider it again... Luke 6:31 - "31Do to others as you would have them do to you. DO TO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU!!! You have stated that "The Biblical God says that slaves may be beaten to death" You have stated that the Bible supports "old-style ball, chain, and whip slavery". The Bible says "Do to others as you would have them do to you"... Are you saying that YOU, would like to be beaten to death? Are you saying that YOU, would like to wear a Ball and Chain? Are you saying that YOU, would like to be whipped? The obvious answer is that You would NOT like to beaten to death, and You would NOT like to wear a Ball and Chain, and You would NOT like to be whipped. Since that is true, you have GOD's word that "Slavery is Wrong". As I said before, NOBODY CAN WORD SMITH THIS DIRECTIVE! Based on the fact that we have been in dialogue on this for 2 months now, I think we have both made our main points. Thanks for your time, keep pursuing the TRUTH. Have a great day.
Subj: a note from the CBBB web site
Date: 12/31/99 1:06:10 AM EST
From: BBu84
To: XXXXX@blank.comMr. XXXXX, At last I am responding to your final e-mail to my web site-"Christianity: Bogus Beyond Belief." In your e-mail, you maintained that the Bible does not support slavery. You stated that because the Bible contains the words "Do to others as you would have them do to you" that this means that the Bible does not support slavery. You wrote that I engaged in "word-smithing" and was misrepresenting the type of slavery portrayed in the Bible. You wrote that the slavery depicted in the Bible was not the slavery of 1850 America, implying that it somehow was a superior form of slavery. First of all, if the slavery depicted in the Bible is not the type of slavery found in 1850 America, then what type of slavery was it, exactly? In what ways was it superior? Is there actually a form of slavery that you would consider 'good' slavery? You say that I engage in "word-smithing" when I claim that the Bible supports slavery. I disagree. I am simply reading the plain English of the Bible, not adding to it or taking away from it. That the Bible supports life-long slavery, that it protects those who beat slaves to death and that it describes slaves as the property of their owners is not disputable. Read the verses again. I cannot imagine how these facts could possibly be made more clear to you. But I have something else to say regarding "word-smithing." The Exodus 20:21 quote as found in the RSV reads as follows: "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money." Somehow you changed a portion of this quote to "if the slave stands up after a day or two." You did not explain your source for this particular rendition of the verse. Curious. Is this an example of the "word-smithing" you keep referring to? You challenged me to explain how the Bible can advocate slavery if it contains phrases like "love your neighbor as your self" and "do to others as you would have them do to you." As I tried to make clear in my previous e-mail, simply because the Bible contains a few phrases here and there advocating kindness and concern for others, this does not erase all of its verbiage promoting violence, cruelty, and inhumanity. Obviously the "do to others as you would have them do to you" phrase shows the Bible to be contradictory, because none of the slave-holding Hebrews of the Bible would ever trade places with their life-long slaves, and none of the rampaging Hebrew soldiers of the Bible would ever trade places with the women and children they were running their swords through. Additionally, if the Christian god actually exists and sends people to hell as the Bible says, then he is clearly and directly violating both the letter and the spirit of his "do to other as you would have them do to you" maxim. Since you indicated that your last e-mail was your final one, I don't expect a response. However, if I do not hear from you, I would certainly hope that you would reflect on some of the questions I have asked you in this e-mail. Happy New Year. Brooks
Subj:
Date: 9/2/99 11:08:22 PM EST
From: YYYYY@blank.com (YYYYY)
Reply-to: YYYYYY@blank.com (YYYYY)
To: bbu84@aol.com
You deny the existence of a higher power, and this is your primary argument against Christianity. What do you do with the man Jesus Christ? He existed, has had more impact on the modern world than any one else in history, and has managed to additionally shape other religions outside of Christianity. How do you handle the person of Jesus Christ? YYYYY
Subj: your e-mail to the CBBB website
Date: 9/3/99 0:10:59 AM EST
From: BBu84
To: YYYYY@blank.com
YYYYY, Yes, Christianity has had a tremendous impact on the human race, though some would say it has been more destructive than constructive. I don't think the Jesus portrayed in the Gospels existed. There may have been someone who went around dispensing advice to people who ended up being crucified by the Romans, and this person may have been the basis for the stories in the Gospels. However, I do not believe there was an actual person who walked on water, multiplied loaves and fishes, healed the sick and who rose from the dead. I think these are the legends and tall tales of superstitious people. Why should I or any person believe in such things simply because they are found in a book of ancient mythology? So how do I explain Jesus? As a figure of ancient mythology which has had a huge influence on the human race for a little less than two thousand years. Brooks
Subj: Re: your e-mail to the CBBB website
Date: 9/3/99 0:22:36 AM EST
From: YYYYY@blank.com (YYYYY)
To: Tekministry@aol.com Many would agree in the apparent destructivness..Edward Gibbon the historian leading the pack. The historical Jesus, which Josephus, the first century Roman historian wwrote about, does give more than just a picture of a Jesus who walked around giving rise to fables and ended up being crucified. Josephus chronicals the impact that Jesus' work had, including the Roman indifference to him and the Jew's conspiracy against him, lending a lot fo validity to the gospel accounts of his life. Further more, the Gospels can not be quickly dismissed as fable. While the supernatural content makes them candidates, their historical merit far supercedes the far fetched stories within them. The New Testament is the #1 book in history in manuscript authority, the process by which historians and other evaluate the authenticity and probability of occurenece of events. take the Galeic wars. We have ten manuscripts recording this event in the first century. And no one dares to challenge the events that were said to have occured within them. Ceasar himself (octavious - constatine) claimed that they would be resurreceted and we have many manuscripts recording a physical resuurection after their death. Yet we step back and just dismiss the miriculous events while keeping the history, why should the New Testament be any different? The New Testament has 24,653 manuscripts, 24 thousand more than any other book, yet the historical merit is constantly challenged because of the supernatural events within. Could you accep the historical accounts of the life of Christ from the gospels, in light of the manuscript authority and the writting of Josephus? YYYYY
Re: your e-mail to the CBBB website
Date: 9/3/99 10:09:45 AM EST
From: BBu84
To: YYYYY@blank.com YYYYY, Who was Josephus, when was he born, when did he write, and what did he write about Jesus-specifically? Please give me all the direct quotes from Josephus regarding Jesus so I can evaluate your claims. What is the significance of "manuscript evidence"? What do you mean when you say that there are a large number of manuscripts of the New Testament? Explain very clearly how a large number of "manuscripts" makes the Bible true. I have heard this one before but I honestly do not understand how a large number of copies of the New Testament make the stories in it true. Explain this one to me. Thanks. Brooks