On this page various topics are discussed, including faith, death, and Pascal's Wager.Send e-mail to Tekministry@aol.com
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Subj: Ok
Date: 97-10-16 20:44:27 EDT Sir, you obviously have some repressed anger built up towards God, resulting from what you have come to associate with him through your own experiences. Of course religion is a crock of shit (uh oh, I said a bad word! I'm a dyed in the wool Christian, by the way). That was Jesus' point all along. He criticized the pharisees more than anyone (pharisees would be like your modern day evangelists, priests, etc). He called them a brood of vipers. Understand that the Church/Religion, and Jesus Christ are two separate things. Your hostility is being directed at the wrong place. Also, Christians aren't self-righteous. Well, some are. Possibly most. But they aren't true Spiritual Christians, they are simply church goers. The reason the church is such a joke is that that's where the unsaved, needy people flock to. The church, or body of Christ, is SUPPOSED to be a place where the true Christians come to be with other true Christians. If you really want to direct your anger, direct it towards Jesus himself. He can hear you, most assuredly. Don't direct it towards Christians, though. We're just as imperfect as everyone else, in some cases more. Our message is not in our own righteousness, but Jesus's. I apologize if any of my brothers or sisters have offended you, but the message of the gospel is, itself offensive. That's why they hung Jesus out to die, because he offended a bunch of hoity toity priests. He said they were wrong in their self-righteousness. You know what Jesus was charged with at his trial? Healing someone on the Sabbath. And they killed him. Trust me, I know where you're coming from, I was an atheist all my life until I understood. I was just as hostile, if not more, towards Christians. But, ironically, secular people just don't understand the true message. You can't understand it from the other side. The Bible's true meaning is hidden from the non-spiritually discerned. No joke, I'm being straight up, it really is. I've seen both sides. There was a time when I honestly, to save my own soul, could not understand the ignorance of Christianity. However, now that I know Christ, I have to sit down and think back what it was like on the other side of the veil. I can't. I only know that it sucked.
Craig, How can I have anger towards something that I don't believe exists? You say that the Bible's meaning is hidden from the "non-spiritually discerned." Could you explain this phrase a little better? It seems a little awkward. How does a spiritually discerned person differ from a non-spiritually discerned person? And how can one who is non-spiritually discerned become spiritually discerned in order to see the true meaning of the Bible? I think that what you are saying is that a person has to believe in supernaturalism (spiritualism) prior to accepting the Bible. But why should anyone accept supernaturalism in the first place? I guess I just don't like your "spiritually-discerned" phrase because it is very easy to spout blatant falsehoods, or to read them from a holy book, and then to claim that those who don't accept your falsehoods just aren't spiritual enough to see their godly truth. Your "spiritually-discerned" explanation seems like a rationalization. I don't dispute that your non-theism "sucked." And I don't dispute that your theistic beliefs make you feel wonderful. The only thing I am disputing is the underlying truth of those beliefs. Have a nice day. Brooks
Subj: Re: your e-mail to the CBBB web page
Date: 97-10-17 20:44:31 EDT A) Our belief or unbelief has no effect on the existence of God, or anything else. We are just wisps, sub-units of something bigger than we can comprehend. For us to not believe doesn't in any way, shape, or form affect reality. For instance, when the entire world believed the world was flat, did that in any way, shape, or form make the world, in fact, flat? Each person does not construe his/her own reality. Truth, by its very definition, is foundational, and UNCHANGING. For one of God's "units", (a person), to not believe in his existence, would be like my computer (if it were sentient), to not believe in the internet. It could choose not to log on, all day and all night, but it wouldn't change the reality. B) Spiritual discernment is not a token phrase. It is simply the most accurate description. When we are spiritually regenerated. That is, we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior, we receive a new spirit from him. A spirit in his likeness. We now see the world through his eyes. (This is why it is impossible to argue with us). We're really not as ignorant as we seem, we just sincerely view the world from a whole new perspective. This is not something that has been brainwashed into us, it happens in an instant. Well, it did for me, at least. My experience with God took place alone, on a beach, as I was searching for the reason to my existence. It did not involve church, or religion, or any other person. I knocked, and true to his promise, he opened the door. C) Supernaturalism: Modern history has been around for what, 1500 years? That's a blink of an eye in the spectrum of eternity, right? During modern history, man has had this time to come up with all of his scientific theories, postulation, etc, right? During this time, all the laws of physics have stayed the same, right? During this time, man himself has stayed pretty much the same. I mean, we have always had 5 senses: sight, touch, taste, smell, and hearing. These are the means from which we receive all of our inputs from what we call reality, right. They are like our keyboard, mouse, hard drive, CDRom, etc. Except, unlike computers, ours haven't changed much. Our vision has ALWAYS been able to see a certain spectrum of light. That is, there are wavelengths that our rods and cones can't detect, yet they nevertheless exist. Our sense of touch only responds to various physical sensations. Taste buds haven't changed. Our sense of smell is probably the worst on the planet (thank God). We can hear from about 20-20,000 Hz. These parameters haven't changed. Also, they are very limiting. So, for the last 1500 years, we have been developing assumptions about the universe, and scientific theories, and have come to rely on those theories (big bang, evolution) as truth, given our fundamental constraints. To my way of thinking, THIS if far more foolish and ignorant than the belief in a creator God. It takes more faith NOT to believe in God, than to believe in him. It takes faith that a random, unintelligent process created the design and order of our planet which, to me, is out of the question. If you took all the materials necessary to build a building: bricks, mortar, steel, etc - and put them in a field an left them for a billion years, do you think a building would produce itself? Nope. Therefore, it is foolish to rule out supernaturalism when we are creatures of flesh. Our creator limited our sensory perceptions. Satan gave us the technology to augment those perceptions, per his promise in the garden to make us "like God". And so we have become "like" God. We attempt to control birth and death, with horrific results. We have knowledge of the weather, knowledge of the elements. We've even attempted to be like God in the matter of creation of life. However, it is just a cheap imitation. Our clones will be modern day Frankensteins. Thus we are in no more a position to deny the creator, than our computers are in a position to deny us. Which will happen, by the way..... Craig
Craig, You touched on a number of different topics, but I did not see any evidence or arguments for your god. Until you provide some evidence for your god, I can not possibly believe in it. What more can I possibly say? Telling me that you have spiritual discernment, that I cannot argue with you, that you had a personal experience with Jehovah, all this does not impress me. Would a Muslim telling you that he has spiritual discernment impress you? Would a Muslim telling you that you can not argue with him impress you? Would a Muslim telling you that he had a personal experience with Allah impress you? I do not think that any of things would make you a believer in Allah. So perhaps you will forgive me if don't run out to a church tonight and pledge my life to Jesus. Unimpressed, Brooks P.S. Our belief or unbelief has no effect on the non-existence of God.
Subj: Re: your e-mail to the CBBB webpage
Date: 97-10-20 12:37:50 EDT There IS no "evidence", as you understand it, of God. God does not desire that type of fellowship with us. He wants, more than anything, to be known. However, he isn't concerned with our intellect, he is concerned with our hearts. If you are really interested in finding out for yourself, you will have to ask him directly. I am just a man, I can't convince you of anything. That is between you and him. Just say " God, I'm not real sure about you. I've been turned off by the corruption of religion. If you exist, please reveal yourself to me". Then listen. You've got to listen for his voice. You can't wait 30 seconds, not see any pyrotechnics, then email me back saying I told you so. God works on His schedule, not ours. About Allah. One of us is right, either Jesus is God, or Allah is God. Or, Buddha, or whatever. They can't all be right for different people. There can be only ONE truth, by the very definition of truth. Either Jesus Christ is the Son of God, or he isn't. Either the world was created by God, or it wasn't. Just because there are other "religions" on this planet doesn't take away any credibility from Jesus Christ. Especially when he warned us vehemently about false doctrines prior to his Second Coming. So there you go, if you want to meet God. If you want the Truth, you have to go to the creator. If you want to "find" yourself, you have to ask the man with the blueprints. No scientist can prove the existence of God to you. They can't even cure the common cold, I don't see why people put so much faith in them anyway. Craig
Subj: Are you Happy?
Date: 97-10-11 15:14:06 EDT I am not writing you to condem you to hell or to try to convince that what you are believing is wrong. Most likely every argument that I could think of you would be able to debate. I am just going to ask you one question, are you happy? I am not talking about whether you are successful or if you make lots of money. I am talking about when you are all by yourself with your own thoughts, are you really satisfied with the thought that you were created by accident? If we were created by accident (the big bang theory, evolution) what reason do we have to live everything that we do is worthless. Are you happy with believing that. I am only 17, and I admit that I have not seen much of this world but I have probably been through more than a lot of adults. You see my father was an alcoholic. A lot happens to a home when you have to go through something like that. You find it hard to believe in anyone let alone in God, but if I didn't have Jesus through that time I don't know what I would have done. I have read your E-mails to other people and I know that you are probably thinking that that is all nice for you but what does it have anything to do with me? Well honestly it probably doesn't. I just wanted to let you know what some of the things that Jesus has done for me. Know matter what anyone will tell you it won't make a difference to you as long as you are so set to not believe in it. If you look to other christians as examples you will always be let down because we are all humans and we are not perfect especially me. But I want to let you know that I am committed to praying for you everyday. I do not say that to impress you, it's just that no words would ever be able to convince you that Jesus is real. Only God can do that, if it is just word they are totaly worthless. Well thankyou for taking the time to read my E-mail and I am sorry if it does not make much sense to you, I am not very good at expressing myself when writing things down. Rememeber whether you believe it or not Jesus loves you and when he was hanging the cross he was thinking of you. If you had been the only one on earth he would have gone through all the pain just for you.
Thank you for your e-mail. You ask whether I am happy believing that my existence is the result of an accident. First of all, I don't know if I would describe the Big Bang and evolution as accidents. The term "accident" is negative, it implies something going awry, a mistake of some kind, cars crashing together and bleeding bodies. If by using the term "accident" you mean that these occurrences and processes were unplanned by anyone or anything, I will agree with that usage. That said, I am happy to be alive regardless of whether my existence was planned or not, and regardless of how long it lasts. Why wouldn't I be? Your statement that everything is worthless if our existence is an "accident" does not make sense to me. I don't see my life, my family and my friends as worthless because I don't believe in a god or in eternal life. If anything, I see these as being much more precious and special because they will all, one day, disappear. The following bulletin board post should clarify things a bit: What gives life meaning? Family, friends, wealth, etc. These are the common responses of the anti-theist. Yet, what if you were to lose them? Where would meaning be found?? Within yourself? Unless we have some trancendent purpose no matter how hard we try our search for meaning will ultimatly let you down. David A... Yes, you can lose them, that's why they are so precious to have. What is more valuable, something that is rare or something that you can have anywhere, all the time, with no fear of loss? The fact that our loved ones can be taken from us, and our own lives will end someday, gives meaning to the time that you have to live, and gives value to the few moments you have to enjoy the company of others. This need for transcendence is just an unwillingness to accept mortality. If a finite period of time is meaningless, why is an infinity of time meaningful? If my earthly life is meaningless, how does extending that out to infinity give it meaning? Infinity times zero is zero.Duke Of course I know that the idea of death is very frightening for many people. And I am not thrilled that I am going to die someday. But you know something? We have all been there before. 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, a billion years ago, we were all dead. And it wasn't so bad, was it? I am sorry to hear you have had a hard home life. I sincerely hope that things have improved and/or you have been able to move away. I don't doubt for a moment that your belief in Jesus has helped you through tough times. However, that does not make the stories in the Bible any more plausible. If a Muslim told you that his faith in Allah was the only thing that allowed him survive some egregious trauma, would you then believe in Allah? I don't think so. That is really swell of you to pray for me, but I did not ask for it and I think you are wasting your time. Instead of praying for me, you should put all of that well-intentioned effort into something truly useful, like donating blood or volunteering at a soup kitchen. As far as Jesus suffering for me, the story of the sacrificed god is an old pagan tradition, repeated numerous times in various guises. At one time the crucified savior was Mithra, at another time it was Attis and at yet another time it was Apollo. Adonis was crucified and resurrected, and Prometheus died for the human race. Buddha, after crucification, suffered three days in hell, then ascended into heaven. [Editor's note: This statement about Buddha may be wrong. Go here.] If you had lived 2000 to 3000 years ago, I would suggest that you would have just as much faith in one of these gods as you now have in Jesus. The idea of a god suffering terribly to take away people's supposed "sin" is not new. The reason it has been around so long is because it is extremely effective in arousing guilt in people. Guilty people are easier to manipulate. And manipulating people is what religion is all about. Have a nice day. Brooks
Subj: Great site!
Date: 97-10-13 03:58:15 EDT Brooks, I admire the patience that you demonstrate when you debate with Xians. I tend to get angry when I discuss the issue with beleivers, it's just so frustrating when you show them obvious biblical contradictions and they ignore them. I work with a bunch of Xians and we debate the issue often, most of the time they say "I don't know," It's a mystery" or words to that effect. A guy named Shawn that I work with actually said that even if I proved that Xianity was false that he would still beleive, how much more can a person debase themself? I at least admit that if someone proved Xianity was true, I would be a Xian, what choice would I have? I don't think I have a choice in being an atheist. I've never heard an Xian make one credible arguement about all the contradictions. The whole idea is absurd to me, it makes no sense. I tell them that I can't just turn a blind eye to all the evidence that disproves Xianity, there answer to that is that I should ignore what I see and just submit. funny huh......... I consider myself an educated atheist, my decision to abandon Xianity was not made overnight. I read material that was for and against, talked to many people of different faiths. For me, being an atheist is the only rational choice. Don't get me wrong, I really like the people I work with, I even consider some of them my friends. It just really irks me to listen to them talk about what a bunch of "Wretches" they are, and I can't help but laugh at how 'proud' they are of being 'humble'. There's only one that I really can't stand, his name is Amado. He's always telling me that I'll burn in hell and that I'll wish that I had listened to him. He's the only one that I get rude with, the other's are at least respectful of my beleifs. One day Amado was going on about how he'll be in heaven and I'll be in hell, you know, the usual. I said to him, " there's not going to be any christians in hell?" He replied, " No there won't", and I said, " I think I could be very happy there then". You should have seen the look on his face. I know that I shouldn't say things like that, but he really does get on my nerves. I think you make a better example of an atheist than myself. I always just seem to justify there idea that atheists are people that hate Xians and god. I really don't, it's not the people I don't like, it's the intolerance and self-rightousness that the Xian religion perpetuates that I don't like. As far as me hating god, I don't think I hate god anymore than I hate the toothfairy, although I can't make them understand that. I'm not sure why I wrote all this, I guess I needed to explain myself to someone. I think alot of people have a big misunderstanding about me, I figure maybe another atheist might understand that. If someone actually reads this, good, if not, I suppose it doesn't really matter, I feel better just having written it. Peace......
Superstarfreak, I am happy that you enjoyed my website. I think it is funny that Christians ask you to disprove their religion. I get this all the time. No one can disprove Christianity, just as no one can disprove the Invisible Pink Unicorn. You cannot disprove anything which has not been proven in the first place. The next time a Christian asks you to disprove his religion, ask him to disprove the Invisible Pink Unicorn. It cannot be done. The only reasonable position to take with regards to outrageous claims is not to have a belief in them unless and until there is good evidence for them. There is no good evidence for the outrageous claims of Christianity. Where the claims are testable, they fail. For example, according to the genealogies given for Jesus in the NT, the earth is only 6000 years old. This is blatantly false. It was the Church's position for most of its history that this was divine truth, and numerous churchmen fixed the earth's creation on a Tuesday or Thursday about 4000 BC You won't find ministers embarrassing themselves today by trying to support this clearly nonsensical assertion. It has been quietly dropped-at least by liberal Christians. The Catholic Church fought Galileo and threatened him with torture for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. They made him recant his statements about his discovery and they put him under house arrest until the day he died. Only within the last 5 years has the Catholic Church grudgingly apologized for this. The Bible implies that the earth is flat. It is not. Since the time that the theory of evolution was proposed in the last century, the Protestant and Catholic churches have continually heaped scorn upon it. Now even the Pope has agreed that evolution takes place-divinely directed of course, and only fundamentalists cling to the Genesis fable of creation. Testable Bible claims fail. Those that are not testable can only be accepted on faith. I know what you are saying about Christians being self-righteous. It is hypocritical of them to declare that they are meek and humble and that everyone who does not share their delusions is arrogant and prideful. That is just projection. It is the complete opposite of the truth. Anyone who believes that a god listens to his prayers is arrogant and prideful. Someday I would like to ask a Christian is if he is proud of being a Christian. If he says yes, I would tell him that pride and is a major sin. If he says no, I will say "good." I loved your comment to Amado that if hell is free of Christians, that is where you want to go. My sentiments exactly. I'd much prefer to be burned alive forever than to spend eternity continually screaming praises at some pathetic god with an ego problem. Have a good one. Brooks
Subj:
Date: 97-10-28 09:44:00 EST "But what if you are wrong?" you ask. If Christians start drinking poison without ill effects, curing people in Jesus' name, moving mountains through faith and rising from the dead, I might change my opinion. Until then, though, I will continue trying to improve this site. _______________________________________________________ I have to begin by telling you that I have a VERY deep respect for all the time and research that you have put into this...I personally believe in God's promise that if we seek, we shall find. I do, as I'm sure you can already tell, disagree with your belief, or lack of belief rather, and below explains why. Also, I will pray that you be given eyes to see the many mountains that already have indeed been moved, and I hope that you are given the gift of faith, so that you can see that any transformation that does come from God usually does not happen instantaneously, not that I think that's impossible. For example, when I pray to be given patience, I am not immediately overcome by a rush of God's peace... I am put at the end of every line I stand in. Not a test from God...a tool, a method of teaching, you wouldn't expect a three year old child to read or understand Shakespear, would you? I am not going to attempt to get into a scripture quoting debate, I just want to tell you that the only scoffers at prayer are those who haven't tried it enough... I hope that part of your research has also been a test of the power of prayer. If not, then I challenge your method of research. Since you already firmly believe that you can prove the non-existence of God, I challenge you to put aside your intellect and your books and very simply ask, "God if you're there, then show me that you're there." I really think you'll be surprised, and if you truly are resolved to your athiest belief, then to do this surely has no risk involved in it; besides, if can only prove your commitment to know the real truth. In seeing your desire to know the truth and your willingness to seek it, I am convinced that you will find it. So, for when you do, don't worry, there are no lighting bolts to dodge, God is a loving, forgiving kind of guy, which is why he is and will continue to call you back to Him. I pray that your knowledge of the Bible in the future be used for Him...there's such a need for intelligent people who are convicted to share their testimony to heal this broken world. Thank you for reading my mail. Peace.
Jennifer, I used to pray to the Christian god when I was a youngster. I was quite earnest in my prayers. I believed quite firmly that this god existed. However, I finally realized that Christian beliefs simply had no foundation. By asking me to pray to God, you are asking me to believe in God so that I can believe in God. How can I pray to something I don't believe in? If I did make a prayer request to your god and it came true, this would hardly confirm Christianity. Do you know that Muslims make prayers and that their prayers come true? So do Hindus. Does this make those religions true? If a Muslim asked you to pray to Allah, and one of your prayers came true, would this convince you that Islam was legitimate? I would suggest to you that, apart from the psychological effects it has on believers, prayer is no more effective in changing events than mere chance. I do not "firmly believe that I can prove the non-existence of God." I do firmly believe, however, that Christian beliefs are indefensible. However, if believers started rising from the dead and Jesus came back riding on the clouds, I might be persuaded that I was in error. Having said all this, I appreciate the thoughts expressed in your e-mail. I have nothing against Christians in general, and I enjoy it when Christians reply to me in a friendly manner as you have done. I am sure that many believers find my website to be quite offensive. Thanks again. Sincerely, Brooks
Subj: praying to God -Reply
Date: 97-11-05 00:19:50 EST File: ORTHO.TXT (373535 bytes)
DL Time (14400 bps): 7 minutes Hi Brooks. Thank you for your response...I*m too am glad that we can have a friendly conversation in spite of our disparity, and I*m still going to pray for you anyway. :*) I have a book that states, *Religion says the existence of God can be proved; the agnostic says it can*t be proved; and the atheist claims proof of the nonexistence of God.* Right or wrong, from that is where I borrowed my definition of atheist. I have an analogy for you. If a person is sick, they usually seek a remedy for their illness, no? There are, of course, usually many different ways to treat or cure that illness. However, until the person actually uses the treatment - in the way prescribed - they will not feel better. Some of these prescribed remedies also have side effects. The remedy is chosen perhaps based on what they know about it, or what others have learned about it, or what they*ve experienced in the past, or maybe just because they trust the person who is giving it to them, etc. Now I would think that most people believe their choice is right, and so they swallow...and so they get their result. So it is with Christianity, without applying or even testing it*s principles in real life situations; for instance, praying for an enemy, and without doing this in the way prescribed (which it clearly states is not easy) one CANNOT come to know God. A writer can state whatever he wants in a book...and the content can be argued about intellectually, and in many cases proved right or wrong, but you cannot dispute a personal experience, personal proof. The Bible tells us to not conform to this world or to it*s limitations...to tangible facts. I think that is why God left it so open, so obscure, because He knew it would be different for all of us. Just as the requirement for the sick to get well is medicine, the requirement for the human to know God is faith, and just a little at that - the size of a mustard seed as I*m sure you recall. Faith is the belief in something for which there is no proof. It must be tested and from there must come a personal decision. So, yes, I'm asking you to try prayer again, not just to make a request to see if you get it, but to ask Him to show you what IS true and legitimate. Please Brooks...the time is now. I*ve also sent along a copy of a book (ZIP file) that if the mood so strikes you, it's kind of long, but it is interesting reading anyway. The author is very intellectual, like yourself, and talks of how he drew his conclusion. ~Jennifer
Jennifer, I prayed to your god and nothing happened. What should I do? Confused, Brooks
Subj: Re: praying to God -Reply -Reply
Date: 97-11-07 09:33:33 EST Hi Brooks. :') I detect a slight note of sarcasm from over there...? Of course, I do hope you really did try it with an honest intention. How are you otherwise? I've thought about you a lot this week. If you don't mind, I'd like to know more about you. Was there a specific event that happened to you to make you believe as you do? Do you celebrate Christmas? Easter? What does your family believe? I read that you are 31....Are you married? Children? Is there any religion that you find to be valid at all? Why? I apologize if this info is already on your Web page...I haven't had time to go through it all. Hope you have a great weekend...and I'm still, still going to pray for you. ~Jennifer
Jennifer, I know that you would like to find some horribly traumatic event which caused me to reject your god, but it just came about as a result of looking at the world around me, and seeing it devoid of evidence for the claims of Christianity. I have never heard a Christian give a satisfactory answer as to why he or she believes. If you are going to insist that there is evidence for Christianity, please explain what it is. By the way, I do celebrate Christmas, which had been the solstice holiday originally. Have a nice day. Sincerely, Brooks
Subj: corrected mail from the CBBB webpage -Reply
Date: 97-11-10 09:35:06 EST Brooks, John 5:39-40. I repeat, a person who doesn't have faith even this (.) big...CANNOT know Christ. ~Jennifer
Subj: Re: corrected mail from the CBBB webpage -Reply
Date: 97-11-10 10:32:13 EST Jennifer, Once again a Christian has asked me accept Christianity but has failed to provide reasons why I should accept it. Why am I not surprised? If a Muslim asked you to accept Allah but did not tell you why you should accept Allah, what do you think you would do? Would you then accept Allah? Have a good one. Brooks
Subj: Re: corrected mail from the CBBB webpage -Reply -Reply
Date: 97-11-10 11:54:41 EST Brooks, Just for the record, I am not trying to take away your freedom...you have the right to choose, I fully accept this AND I fully respect your rights. I am not judging you; I am just so overwhelmed by this gift, that I want everyone to have it. I WILL explain to you why I personally believe in a living God.... I just need more time than I have right now. Good day! ~Jennifer
Subj: Re: corrected mail from the CBBB webpage -Reply -Reply
Date: 97-11-11 10:14:41 EST I sent you a passage yesterday, John 5:39-40, just in case you didn't get the chance to read it states, "You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." You want proof of why you should believe in God and what I've been trying to tell you is that you are looking in the wrong place in the wrong way. In John 4 it tells the story of the Samaritan woman who meets Jesus at a well. Now this woman walks up already having three strikes against her, she is Samaritan, a woman, and she is living with a man who is not her husband. Jesus tells (to sum it up) that he knows her, that he knows how she is living...and then asks her to serve him and thus receive the gift he has to offer. (life giving water) She is confused because she is "different" than he. At this point they begin to discuss their differences of culture and religion, and at the end she says, "I know the Messiah is coming; when he comes, he will show us all things." (She is saying "I believe.") So Jesus tells her just who He is. If you look just before chapter 4, you'll notice Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus. (sp?) The gist of what he tells Nic is that Nic has no clue what he's teaching...that he has missed the point somewhere. Nic was a man who was a great religious leader of the time. Nic KNEW the scripture, but he had lost faith, not belief, but faith. He was so caught up in the details he failed to look for and recognize Christ. I sat in church for years without knowing or trusting God, but thinking I did. I thought I had faith because I knew some of the Bible, but I wasn't living according to the scriptures...actually, I was selective in what I lived. I gloated over how wonderfully I live out my selected parts of the God's will, and the others? Well, I didn't mention those too much, or I had great excuses for them. I gave Christians a bad name for a lot of years. I fooled myself into thinking that certain things didn't really apply anymore in "this" day and age. It says right in the Bible that God doesn't change. Then I began to wonder why God promises were no where to be found in my life...Why was I so afraid all the time? It was because I didn't have faith, and I ignored everything he was telling me...right down to the voice of my conscious. THAT's the catch. This Faith thing, it's difficult, I know. Faith is a gift and to receive it all we have to do is choose it. From the view of the world, yes it's very backwards...it says, "Believe and you will see, " while we say, "Show me and I will believe." That is why I ask you to test it... but honestly and wholeheartedly. Only after you've tested it with faith can you truly call yourself an atheist. If you are not afraid of being wrong, it shouldn't bother you to try it. Touching on other religions, I have just begun to look into them because I too want to know why this is the whole truth and the others are not. I do believe that there is truth in other religions. From what I know so far, Christianity is the only religion that states that it is the truth. However, until I'm farther along, I can only attest to the difference in my life from faith in Jesus as the Messiah. It says in Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Brooks, don't let this world fool you...it's full of deceit. It's a paradox...you have much greater power and wisdom available to you, but it is only reachable after surrender. I've thought about your reason behind creating your web page...and I'm not judging, but quite frankly I don't understand it. I have since stumbling upon your page, considered living a life with out my God. I have to tell you, after thinking it through, I just can't do it. I have seen far too many wonderful things that God has done and found peace in Him in any controversy. He takes care of everything I need. I would be a fool after having seen all those things to turn my back on Him. (I am only speaking for myself.) So thank you for giving me the chance to confirm my faith in Him. I will continue to pray that you find the truth and I hope that one day I see you in the New Jerusalem. ~Jennifer
Jennifer, You still did not explain why you accept Christianity. You provided no arguments or evidence for Christianity. If a Muslim told you that you just had to surrender and accept Allah, would that convince you to become a Muslim? If not, then why do you think that saying the same thing to me will cause me to accept your god? Unless and until I see evidence for Christian assertions, I will never accept those assertions as true. I feel the same way about Muslim claims, Hindu claims and claims by members of the Heaven's Gate cult, so I hope you don't think I am singling out Christianity even though it is the focus of my website. You say that you don't understand my website. Put yourself in my position for a moment- I don't believe in Christianity. I think it is utter nonsense. And yet I am surrounded by people who are convinced that they are righteous and morally perfect because they grovel before what I clearly see as the idiotic superstitions of ancient people. I watch these people condemn everyone else in the world for not accepting their delusional beliefs. I hear them argue that the killing of women and infants, that slavery, that eternally torturing people for their opinions is moral goodness in it highest form. I simply feel the need to inform these people that they are making a mistake. Take care. Sincerely, Brooks P.S. I am sending you the latest page I have added to my website-it might clarify my position a little bit.
Subj: your mail to the CBBB website -Reply
Date: 97-11-14 12:00:47 EST Brooks, I did explain why I have accepted Christianity...because I have "tested" it in my personal trials and I have found it to work. For example, I have found incredible peace in praying for people I resent. Why would I want to do that? Because this world deeply troubles me, all this fighting and finger-pointing, so I personally try to practice these principle in situations within my own reach. I know you have found sections of the Bible that you disagree with, but do you deny there are parts offer some very wise remedies to all problems? Does it not seem backwards that someone should pray for their enemies? Aren't you supposed to just hate your enemies, period? Isn't love the only remedy for hate? I know for myself that I am not capable of that...I would have never thought of that on my own without some guidance. Then you say that you are "surrounded by people who are convinced that they are righteous and morally perfect because they grovel before what I clearly see as the idiotic superstitions of ancient people." From my view, and I know I'm not speaking for EVERY Christian, but I know I'm also not alone, I practice Christianity and I go to church and I talk to all of those Christians because I am no where near being righteous and morally perfect. I need to be around those people because I am "off the mark" most of the time. The last claim I would make is that I am morally perfect! I go there and I talk to those people BECAUSE I struggle with righteousness and a lot of those people have experience the same things. For any person who has decided to live out what the Bible says, it IS difficult and God does ask a lot from us, but I'll tell you there are also promises, and they are happening in my life. You mentioned a lot of examples of God's wrath...I have also questioned these things. It was explained to me that God is ALL good. So what about all that wrath? God has set up "the rules" and "the consequences." Being a God of his word, He has no other choice than to carry out what He has spoken. If He didn't, how could he maintain his reputation? I see Mothers do this everyday with their own children...they have to follow through with whatever punishment they've determined (even if it seems a smaller matter) or they will loose respect from that child and will not be able to guide the child. As for the guidance...I heard a metaphor for this too...chocolate makes dogs really sick, right? Do you think that a dog is going to instinctually turn away from available chocolate? Not a chance! So when the dog gets a hold of it, the master takes it away because he knows it will make the dog sick...and what does the dog do? Fights him tooth and nail because he WANTS that chocolate. To offer a Biblical example, when Moses was up on that mountain, and the people were worshiping the golden calf. God said, (not verbatim) I am going to destroy that sin. (God cannot stand sin.) So Moses pleads with Him...to give them another chance. The outcome is that a very loving God says that He will give those people another chance...that he will save those who turn away from worshiping the golden calf, but not everyone wanted to, and having a choice they didn't. Then a very righteous God destroyed them. How could I possibly argue with that decision? They were wrong, they were warned, AND they were given a second chance. I will not deny that it is confusing, and I do not claim to have all the answers to your questions. I know that God loves us, but I know this ONLY from personal experience. I know that God is righteous and that He will carry out what He has promised; I also know that I am NOT righteous, although I try, and that I need Jesus to rectify my life in God's eyes. I hide in Christ, and because of this, God can overlook my sins. If you look at how parallel the Jewish Passover is to the end of Christ's life and all the things that happened to him, it's easy to see the Bible's fulfilled prophesy. It's easy to see that Christ truly IS the Passover lamb...a sacrifice to God. I gotta run, but I hope you have a great weekend!~Jenn
Jennifer, You said that praying for people you dislike has given you great inner peace and that this has helped to confirm Christianity to you. I would suggest to you that this feeling of inner peace comes about simply because you think you are performing a valuable service for people and this makes you feel good. A Muslim could achieve this same feeling of inner peace by praying for his enemies. This feeling does not point to anything outside of the mind. I know it seems to confirm Christianity to you, but it does not impress me. I have another explanation for the horrible Bible quotations which support slavery, torture and murder. I don't think they were divinely-inspired-I think they were simply the thoughts of the men who wrote the Bible, nothing more and nothing less. You try and compare the torture and slaughter of men, women and children with a mother disciplining her child or keeping chocolate from a dog. There is a bit of a difference between grounding a child for disobedience and disemboweling families with a sword or putting men, women and children in slavery "forever." These types of divinely- sanctioned crimes* are repeated over and over again in the Bible and you cannot just dismiss them with such inappropriate analogies. How is someone supposed to "respect" a "God" which supports slavery or the murder of children? My explanation for these brutalities is that the people who wrote the Bible lived in a culture where warfare and slavery were just accepted parts of their everyday existence, and the god that they worshipped, Jehovah, was a god of war. I see no reason to accept the Bible as anything other than a book written by ancient men. The good feelings you get from praying for your enemies does not change my view of the Bible. I am curious: do you think that the Bible is infallible and that everything in it has to be taken literally? Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. Brooks P.S. Since you pray for me does that mean you resent me? *"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness." Christian god-Leviticus 25:44 "Behold the day of the Lord is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. For I will gather the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished..."Christian god-Zechariah 14:1 "Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."Christian god-Isaiah 13:9, 13:15 "'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'" Christian god-Ezekiel 9:5 "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."Moses-Numbers 31:17 "But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then you shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." Christian god-Deuteronomy 22:20
Subj: your e-mail to the CBBB webpage -Reply
Date: 97-11-19 12:37:05 EST Brooks, Please allow me to try to set a few things straight here...I find nothing in this world infallible and no, I don't take every word of the Bible literally. I don't see how I could have given that impression in the few topics we've touched on...? I also don't personally know any Christians who believe in, support, or practice the ownership of slaves or the murder of children because there are stories of it in the Bible...? Perhaps I am sheltered. Anyway, I'm not out to try to prove who is right, be the person Christian, Muslim, Atheist or Alien. Everyone has to choose for themselves what they will believe and I believe everyone has the right to that choice. I know that I cannot convince you of the existence of God, just as you cannot convince me that He is either "bad" or non-existant. I do not claim to understand God...if I could I could not worship Him? My intent in writing to you is to encourage you to seek God in a different way. I think I've said this to you before, but I am personally overwhelmed by the LOVE of God. I wish I could somehow share this with you and many others in more than just words, but I can't. All I can do is say how I receive it. That is my only intent in telling anyone what I believe, so that maybe they can find their way to God as well. The example of praying for people I resent is not for me a confirmation Christianity; but a confimation of the good that can be found in the Christian Bible, as one example. The comparison between the Mother's rules/Mother's punishment to God's laws/God's punishment was not to determine who's "wrath" is worse; but to illustrate the concept of the danger in losing the respect of the child. Regarding my feelings for you...no, I do not resent you. I don't resent people for not believing as I do; and I would hope that feeling would be mutual. I pray about many things; my prayers are not reserved for, nor limited to those persons that I resent. I try to look at the purpose behind why people do things, this is why I don't understand why you've created your web page. (This is genuine curiosity Brooks.) What have you gained by coming to the belief that there is no God? Are you trying to share this gain with everyone? That is what Christianity is about...sharing hope and love and peace. It doesn't seem too bad to me...? Like I said before, I don't know enough about other religions yet to know what their message is, so I am in no position to say that they are wrong for their choice. I just know what I know. I heard a seventy-something year old man that is losing his sight speaking last week. He is an athiest and he was VERY angry that he could no longer enjoy certain things in this life. I then realized that he is so angry and scared because he has no hope. Because of his failing sight, he is realizing that his life is coming to an end and he has nothing to look forward to. I'm not sure how I will feel when I am at that age and my body begins to fail, but I am sure that based on the things I believe, the end of this life is not a hopeless matter. Have a great week and weekend. I will not be able to respond to you until the first week in December, so if you do celebrate Thanksgiving, I hope you enjoy that too. ~Jennifer
Jennifer, It must be wonderful to believe that you are going to live forever, just as it must be great to think that you can magically alter reality by praying to a god. I don't deny that Christianity makes people feel good with its promises of eternal life. I guess if I was a Muslim, I would spend my life happily dreaming of the Islamic afterlife, a land of milk and honey where I would be waited on day and night by dozens of devoted maidens. That belief would certainly make me feel good, and would give me hope in my latter years. The point I am trying to make is that simply because a belief makes you feel good, it does not make it true. You brought up this story of a 70-year-old man, a non-theist, who is going blind and is apparently bitter because of his failing health. You say that he has no hope for an afterlife and you believe that he is scared. Well, of course he has no hope for an afterlife-he is an atheist. As to him being scared: why do you think that he is scared-what would he be scared of? Hell? Atheists do not believe in hell. Death? To an atheist, death is just non-existence. I certainly do not look forward to aging and dying, but death itself does not frighten me. I have been dead (non-existent) for billions of years and I know what it is like. It certainly is nice to think that one day we could all go to some wondrous afterlife paradise by uncritically accepting ludicrous religious claims, but there is no evidence that this is so. The promise of eternal life appears to be nothing more than an attractive enticement intended to discourage rational thought. Why did I put up this website? I have read the Bible from one end to the other and it is quite clear to me that it is merely the work of fallible men-not the "Word of God." Because of this I feel morally obligated to inform Christians that they are making a colossal mistake. I do not bother Christians in churches, I do not accost them on the street, I do not walk up to their houses and thrust pamphlets in their faces, I do not threaten them with a mortal life of hopelessness or an eternity of pain. All I do is maintain a website which they are free to visit if they are so inclined. I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving. Sincerely, Brooks
Subj: your e-mail to the CBBB webpage -Reply
Date: 97-12-02 16:12:02 EST Brooks, Christianity is one "colossal mistake" I will eternally be grateful for making. Thank you for all your time in answering my e-mail. I still can't understand what anyone would gain by believing that when they die there is non-existance...? For me I can only see what I would be losing and I truly hope that I am never that smart. I feel morally obligated to tell you that God loves you more than you can comprehend and He wants you back. There is more than that which resides in the realm of intellect/human touch. Right now this life's time is your greatest asset. Good day Brooks. Take care. ~Jennifer
Subj: Your website: "Some Christian Arguments and Why They Don't Work"
Date: 97-11-01 07:12:37 EST I have read part of your Biblical Stupidity web page, specifically the page with the title I put in the subject of this message, and I have a specific problem with one part of it. First let me say that I agree with most of what you have on the page and I find it to have some thought put into its construction. I am an atheist and a former Christian, and I deal with some of these issues with Christians and I tend to use many of the same arguments that you have on that page. I was however quite surprised when I read the paragraph under the heading "The 500 Witnesses." This paragraph made sense until I got to the part where you say "In Romans 3:7, Paul said that it was okay to lie to further the cause of Christianity, so his claims should be taken with a grain of salt." I could not place this verse because I had never heard of Paul saying any such thing. I went to my NIV Bible and looked up the verse. Let me tell you what the whole thing really says: Romans 3:5-8: 5. But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6. Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7. Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8. Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. I find this passage to have a very clear meaning. That being that Paul is pointing out the absurdity of the argument that evil done in the name of good is okay. Verse five is the human (ungodly) argument, verse six is Paul's rebuttal. Paul quotes the argument in order to refute it. Paul is saying that people who lie and perform other evil acts in order to further the cause of Christianity are wrong and deserve condemnation. This is exactly the opposite of what you have on your web page. One of the reasons that I bring this up is not only to point out the error, but also because making obvious errors over Bible verses tends to undermine any credibility you may have with Christians. Admittedly, most Christians who read your page would probably not be that impressed anyway, but then again you never know. I had to give up my Christianity in order to be intellectually honest with myself once I found out what unstable factual ground Christianity rests on. I just believe that atheists who refute Biblical claims should be especially careful to get the Biblical arguments right. Chris
Chris, Thank you very much for your helpful advice. Another person also said that same thing about my use of this quote from Paul. He claimed that Paul is condemning lying, not advocating it. I took my Bible quotations from the RSV, and the RSV version of this quote is a little bit different from the NIV version. It reads: "Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written: 'That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and prevail when thou art judged.' But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?-as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just." The NIV version puts "Someone might argue, " before the words "But if through my falsehood..." but the RSV does not have this qualifier. So it appears, to me at least, that the RSV version is an admission by Paul that he lies for his religion. When he states that "Their condemnation is just," this could, I admit, be seen as a disapproval of lying. However, it might also be Paul confirming that he does in fact lie. This quote looks more damning for Paul's honesty if it is put alongside 1 Corinthians 9:20, which reads: "For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win the Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law-though not myself under the law-that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law, I became as one outside the law-not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ-that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men that I might by all means save some. I do it all for the sake of the Gospels, that I might share in its blessings." Here Paul's zeal* to win converts is clearly driving him to deceive people. He justifies his fraud as being for the greater good-saving souls. Once Paul admits that he uses false pretenses to promote his religion, he loses his credibility. In conjuction with this passage, the Romans 3:7 quote (RSV version) look more like a confession by Paul that he is a liar. I will edit the "500 Witnesses" entry to clarify a little better why I think Paul's claims should be taken with grain of salt. I may even drop the Romans 3:7 quote if I determine that it is too vague. I would hate to be accused by Christians of twisting and mangling Bible quotations simply to justify my position. Thanks again. Sincerely, Brooks * "We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." 2 Corinthians 10:5
Subj: Re: your e-mail to the CBBB website
Date: 97-11-02 01:35:10 EST I can see what you mean about the difference between the RSV and NIV versions of Romans 3:7. I still see the same logical argument being used in both, though. As for the 1Cor 9:20 verse, the versions are effectively identical, but I tend not to read that passage as Paul lying to people. It seems more that Paul is allowing himself the freedom to adapt to circumstances, and speak to people at their level, and from their perspective. This would just be a better way of reaching people with his message. On the other hand, I do see what you mean. I see Paul as an incredible fanatic, but not necessarily as a liar. I don't think that Paul would lie about such a thing as 500 people witnessing the risen Jesus. I can believe, however, that Paul would repeat such a thing if he heard it as a rumor. I think that is how Jesus came to be mythologized. Rumors are created, believed, exaggerated, and spread. That seems to be a better explanation of why Paul makes such claims. Thanks for taking the time to listen and reply. Chris
Subj: (no subject)
Date: 97-11-29 04:57:04 EST I don't need a response...... Just wanted to pose you something to consider.... I am a christian. I try to live according to the bible. You say you are not, and don't believe one word of the bible. If I am right......who am I hurting trying to live clean and walk in love and kindness...... And If I am right, I will go to heaven. If you are right, I will still live a clean life that was helpful to others and giving of other's needs. And if you are right......I STILL have hurt NO ONE with my beliefs. What harm is there to believing that there is a God out there that actually cares about what happens to me....... EVEN if you are the one who is right and there is actually NOTHING or NO ONE there. What purpose do you have in trying to convince others of something that you seem to believe REALLY doensn't exist? If it really doesn't exsist? Why waste your time, since you seem to think this life is all we have. Don't waste your energy. Have fun. Let others live and believe whatever makes them happy...... BUT......If I am the one who's right. I will go to heaven, and you will not. And according to the bible you say you don't believe in, if I am right, you will spend eternity in HELL and endure endless suffering and torture and pain. And I will not. IF, I am right. Just maybe, my way of doing things/my beliefs might 1) Still be a GOOD idea even if YOU are right because my way doesn't hurt a sole on this earth.....ESPECIALLY if you are the one who's right.....my beliefs don't affect a thing or a person in the world...... but 2) if I am right.....YOU will be the one who is eternally sorry.......and will have wasted your life trying to convince others the GOOD things they believe arn't true and you may just succeed in bringing along a following into eternal suffering that "you didn't believe in". A heavy responsibility and it'll be your own doing,.....OF COURSE, that's IF I am the one who's right. Have a nice life. It's all you have, according to you. Hope you live it to the fullest. Don't waste a minute!!! Go with Gusto. For....everyone does die eventually. (OR don't you believe THAT either?!) Ever thought of it that way????? Sincerely, Just someone who cares about others
To someone who cares about others, If you are right, you will indeed go to heaven. If the Muslims are right, you will go to their hell. If the Hindus are right, you might be reincarnated as a dung beetle. If the Heaven's Gate cult is right, you missed out on your one opportunity to escape from a doomed planet. If, if, if. If there was some evidence for what you believe, I might actually see it as something more than wishful thinking. You say that you live according to the Bible. What do you mean by this? Do you keep slaves? Do you run around disemboweling people with a sword? Do you kill children? All of this is condoned by the Bible. You kept saying that you care about other people, but by the end of your e-mail you were practically capering with glee over the notion of me being burned alive forever. I know that you have been told over and over and over again that Christianity is all about love, mercy and kindness, but it really isn't. What is loving about torturing people for their opinions? I would strongly suggest that you read the Bible from cover to cover, taking the time to think hard about what you are reading. You say that you hurt no one with your beliefs. I disagree. You are hurting yourself, for one. If you have ever told a child to accept the Bible as true, you are hurting that child. By threatening me with eternal hellfire, you have severely traumatized me : ) Why do I try to convince people that Christianity is false? Perhaps it is because I care about other people and am trying to help them out. No one benefits from basing his or her life on a falsehood. Take care. Sincerely, Brooks