This response page is notable for the e-mail sent in by a gentleman who experienced visions and odors of the Virgin Mary. Send e-mail to Tekministry@aol.com
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Subj: Regarding your views on the Bible
Date: 97-08-19 06:40:25 EDT Dear Former Christian; I am responding to your web page a bby84/biblicalstupidity/home.htm. I can understand your doubts regarding the bible and christianity since I have spent the last year or so struggling with some of the same questions. I have, however, come to a different conclusion than you -- there is a Designer of this universe. I still have some of my own doubts but at the same time I don't have any positive evidence that shows that the bible is a forgery. Here are a list of books that I have read which may be interesting and challenging to you: "Darwin on Trial" by Phillip E. Johnson
"Darwin's black box" by Michael J. Behe
"Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties" by Gleason L. Archer
"Archaeology and Bible History" by Joseph P. Free
"Evolution: a theory in chrisis" by Michael Denton
"Is the New Testament Reliable?" by Paul Barnett
"Basic Christianity" by John R.W. Stott
"Evidence that Demends a Verdict" volumes I and II by Josh McDowell I have also read some crappy books which I do not suggest (not all are listed): "The Evidence for Creation" by G.S McLean et. al. "The Signature of God" by Grant R. Jeffery. The crappy books that I mentioned seem to have a similar problem and that is that the Authors take some, but not all, facts and arrange them to support their theory. My background is in Mechanical Engineering so my mind is skewed toward the scientific reasoning and I didn't find the second set of books AT ALL SCIENTIFIC. They were more like the National Enquirer of Christian Apologetics. The first list of books that I gave you however were much more agreeable to me. I felt that the authors treat the issues with much more integrity and more of a "I don't know everything" attitude. Now, regarding your web page I wish I had more time but it's late and I can only respond to a few of your points: Design: I urge you to read "Darwin's Black Box." I think this lays out a superb argument against Darwinism in that he shows that there are many examples of "irreducibly complex" systems in biological bodies which could not have evolved in a Darwinian fashion. His point is that if any element in the system is removed the entire purpose of the system is killed. Similar to a mouse trap which if you removed any element, the mouse trap would cease to perform its original purpose. 2nd law of thermodynamics: If I understand you correctly, you are saying that since the universe is expanding, that its entropy is not necessarily increasing. I pulled out my Thermodynamics textbook and looked up the definition of a closed system (which is what the 2nd law is applied to) and it is one in which neither total energy or matter are changed so you can look at the entire universe as a closed system. Volume has nothing to do with it. Prophesy: Read "Archaeology and the Bible." This book really helped me to increase my belief that the bible is accurate and truely the word of God. I only believe that the original books were the word of God and that what we have now may have some flaws though I don't know of any. Also, when the dead sea scrolls were discovered which were a thousand years older than any extant manuscripts it was discovered to be in complete agreement except for some style differences. Also, read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Vol II" to review many different arguments against the accuracy of the bible. Historical Confirmations: After reading about these extra biblical accounts of Jesus, the only thing I took from them is that Jesus Christ did exist and that he was crucified because he claimed to be the Son of God. These are really important facts on which I am still building my faith. 500 Witnesses: Romans 3:7 is NOT teaching that it is acceptable to lie. His point is that we should NOT do evil so that good may result. If we could then God could not judge the world. As I said at the beginning of this note, I can understand with your current views on Christianity although I don't agree with them. I have no reason to think that you are a stupid person for having a different view than me -- to the contrary, you seem to be a well educated and articulate person. I just hope that you will be able to look at all of the abundant evidence out there with an unbiased eye and come to the same realization that I have which is that God is real and he has communicated with us through the Bible.Bob
Bob, Thank you for your e-mail. Regarding those books you listed: I have read "Darwin on Trial" and the first "Evidence That Demands a Verdict." I was not impressed by them. Josh McDowell constantly used the argument from authority and the writer of "Darwin on Trial" spent his time attacking straw men. I have not taken a look at Behe's book, but if Behe has a problem with complexity arising in the universe, where did your god's complexity come from? If the 2nd law of thermodynamics forbids life from forming, then it forbids your god from existing. You cannot use these arguments and exempt your god from them. I have to do some more checking on the Dead Sea scrolls, but I don't understand your point. Even if the writings in the Dead Sea scrolls happened to be totally unchanged from the writings in the Bible, that would not make the miracle stories true. If you take a close look at the historical references to Jesus that I listed on my arguments page, you should see that they do not allow any reasonable person to conclude that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible actually rose from the dead and was some sort of supernatural entity. If you think otherwise, all I can say is that I disagree with you. Here is the Romans 3:7 quote again: "But if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?-as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just." To me, Paul is saying that he has lied for the glory of God. I don't know how else you can interpret this. When he says that "their condemnation is just," this is just a confirmation that everything he said about his lying is true. I don't see this as Paul's acknowledgment that lying for God is wrong. If you think the Church has never lied to promote itself and its cause, I suggest you visit this link: http://www.infidels.org/./library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/ You conclude your e-mail by saying that you see evidence that God has communicated to us through the Bible. And what evidence would this be? Your e-mail did not provide it. Have a nice day. Sincerely, Brooks
Re: your email to the CBBB webpage
Date: 97-08-26 08:27:44 EDT Brooks, Here are some clarifications on my email to you which I think are necessary based upon your response.
...the writer of Darwin on Trial spent his time attacking straw men... Johnson spends a lot of time in this book making the point that the "science" of evolution (more specifically, the viewpoint that all life was created by totally natural means) is a faith of its own -- a faith that there is no god. It all dependson your presuppositions. Evolutionists which are athiests start with the assumption that there are no supernatural causes in nature so evolution IS the only possible way for life to have evolved. This is a reasonable argument if you are an athiest. I don't want you to think that I do not believe in micro evolution -- it's macro-evolution for which I see no scientific foundation. I think the leading evolutionists are biased by their presuppositions. If the 2nd law of thermodynamics forbids life from forming, then it forbids your god from existing. You cannot use these arguments and exempt your god from them. Personally, I dislike christian apologists using the 2nd law to make their point because it is SO abused. As I said in my first letter to you, this law only applies to a closed system (i.e. no energy or mass cross its boundries) and christians try to make the point with life on earth. The problem here is that the earth IS NOT A CLOSED SYSTEM. There is the sun and other stars which give energy and meteors hit the earth (adding mass) and also the earth gives away energy in the form of radiation. The only way which I can feel comfortable with the 2nd law argument is when applying it to the entire universe. Even though the universe is expanding, you can consider it a closed system when looking at in its entirety. The 2nd law states that in any process, the change in entropy must either be the same, or increase. This is the law which makes the perpetual engine an impossibility. Since there is not infinite entropy in the universe, there must have been a phenomenon as yet unknown to us (I prefer to think it is God) which set up this this lower entropy in the universe. As far as the 2nd law applying to God: God is infinite as Rev 1:8 says: "'I am the alpha and the omega.' says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.'" And of course you know Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." So, since thermodynamics is a law in the physical universe, and God created the universe, he is NOT bound by these laws. He is not bound by any physical laws such as time, 1st, 2nd law of thermodynamics, etc. I have to do some more checking on the Dead Sea scrolls, but I don't understand your point. Even if the writings in the Dead Sea scrolls happened to be totally unchanged from the writings in the Bible, that would not make the miracle stories true. I think you understand my point here which is that the Bible has remained remarkably unchanged through all of its successive manuscripts. I don't personally believe that the Bible as we have it is absolutely inerrant but I believe God's message is still intact. God would not allow his word to be totally lost in this generation. I am not trying to make the point that the dead sea scrolls prove that the miricles are true but I do think that they prove that the bible has been pretty darn stable through the centuries. Hence, if the stories are original and they match archeological findings, I think that it is not mental suicide to believe that the miricles and prophecies may have occured. If you take a close look at the historical references to Jesus that I listed on my arguments page, you should see that they do not allow any reasonable person to conclude that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible actually rose from the dead and was some sort of supernatural entity. If you think otherwise, all I can say is that I disagree with you. ...the Romans 3:7 quote... Romans 3:5: "But if our unrightousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the whole world?" This is just a part of a long argument that Paul is making for justification by faith -- not the law. But in this section he is saying that it is not right for a person to say that they are justified by lying if that lying is to uphold God because God is just and he will judge the liar. http://www.infidels.org/./library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_chris tianity I will go look at this at a later time. But I can make this point. The church is not infallible. Nor has the bible stated this. I just finished reading a book about Martin Luther and I couldn't believe what the Roman Church was doing. They were selling certificates to church members in exchange for their eternal salvation or the salvation of loved ones. This is clearly a case of the church telling lies and twisting the scriptures. So, I don't argue that the Church can make forgeries but I don't believe that the Bible has been corrupted in a like manner by the churches because all sorts of parallel versions (i.e. written by different churches in the world) of the bible have been compared with very insignificant inconsistencies. You conclude your e-mail by saying that you see evidence that God has communicated to us through the Bible. And what evidence would this be? Your e-mail did not provide it. The evidence that I have found is not contained in any one book that I have read but is contained in the sum total of all of the books (for and against christianity) that I have read. No matter how much email I send you, I will NEVER be able to PROVE that God exists. Our proof is bound by natural laws and God is supernatural so we will never find God in the lab. Even all the historical evidences do not PROVE that the bible is correct. To look at this another way, can you prove that George Washington was the first president of the United States? I could argue that all of the documents which you show me are forgeries. That it is all a conspiracy by the Capitolists which run this country! (joking here). But because, I am a reasonable person (or at least I try to be), I choose to believe that he was the first president because of the preponderance of evidence. It is this preponderance that I hold to when I say that "I believe in God." I think there is a VERY important verse in the new testament where Jesus asks to Peter "Who do you say I am?" to which he replies "You are Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied "Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven." Take care Brooks. Bob.
Bob, I am terribly sorry it has taken me so long to respond to your e-mail. First there was Labor Day, then I left on a trip. In any case, I will try explain why I disagree with the points you made. You say that you believe in micro-evolution but that you don't believe in macro-evolution. I don't think you can believe in one and not the other. Macro-evolution is just a lot of micro-evolution. Does micro-evolution magically stop at some specified point before it becomes macro-evolution? You say that evolutionists are biased against supernatural explanations for life, that they presuppose that a supernatural realm does not exist. I have a question for you: Do you believe in all supernatural claims-or just those presented specifically in the Bible? If you only accept those supernatural claims found in the Bible, you must be biased against other religions' supernatural explanations-you must presuppose the truth of biblical supernaturalism. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no evidence for any supernatural realm, so scientists don't waste their time speculating about it. Science deals with the knowable, religion concerns itself with the unknowable-the supernatural. You allege that the second law of thermodynamics, when applied to the universe as a whole, shows the necessity of creator. In my arguments page, I quoted a physicist who says that the second law of thermodynamics does not forbid the decrease in entropy in our expanding universe. Despite your criticism of other believers for misapplying the second law, I think you yourself are misusing the second law of thermodynamics to give your supernatural beliefs the appearance of scientific validity. I would strongly suggest that you visit this webpage: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/creationism.html You cite Bible quotations to show that your God is not bound by physical laws. As an atheist, this does not impress me. You see, I simply feel that the Bible is a book written by men and nothing more. I could just as easily quote a marvel or DC comicbook to prove that Superman could go back in time by circling the earth really really fast. I don't know, firstly, how close the Dead Sea writings match today's Old Testament, but that to me is a non-issue. It is wrong to assume that a close similarity between those writings and what is found in today's Old Testament, if such a similarity exists, would make the prophecies and miracle claims credible. Why would it? You certainly would not accept the same "argument" if it was presented by Muslims or Hindus regarding their holy books. As far as the Romans 3:7 quote is concerned, I still consider it an admission by Paul that he lies. I would also look at 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 where Paul states: "To the Jews I became as a Jew, to win the Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law-though not being myself under the law-that I might win those under the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel..." If it wrong to lie and lying will be judged by your god, will your god also judge himself? Apparently he lies too. 1 Kings 22:23: "...the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee." 2 Thessalonians 2:11: "And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they shall believe a lie." You say that you believe that the Roman Church did produce forgeries, but that the Bible has remained uncorrupted. However, the Roman Church was the organization which originally put the Bible together around the third century, and whether or not the versions we have today remain "uncorrupted" is of little consequence if the original version was a mass of falsehoods, fiction and mythology-which it surely seems to be. Again, I would urge you to go here and download the book Forgeries in the early Church. The statement that George Washington existed is in no way equivalent to the statement that the Christian god exists. George Washington was a normal flesh and blood human being who left behind good evidence that he existed (Okay, maybe the cherry tree story was a myth). The supernatural being Christians believe in can not even be defined and the things Christians point to as evidence for this undefinable being have perfectly natural explanations. There is not a preponderous amount of evidence for the Christian god-I would say that there is zero evidence. You provide a quote from the Bible which honors belief coming from the Christian god rather from other people. If belief in Christianity should only come from the Christian god, then why are there churches? Have a nice day. Sincerely, Brooks
Subj: Your web page
Date: 97-09-05 05:14:23 EDT Hi! Just been reading your web page, at the suggestion of someone from alt.atheism (he referred me to your 2nd Law of Thermodynamics article). Excellent stuff. I just added a link to it, and then discovered that _you've_ already linked to _my_ page (Noah's Ark section)! Obviously, Satan is trying to get all us atheists in one place... Keep up the good work. Cheers Adrian Barnett, caretaker of the Wasteland Of Wonders
Subj:
Link Date: 97-09-14 23:13:56 EDT I love your page, and would be honored to be listed on your page. thank you. andy http://members.wbs.net/homepages/s/t/y/styxnst0nes.html
Andy, Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back-I've been gone. I checked out your page and I liked it. Thank you for the link to my arguments page. That is the first time I have seen a ring of webpages. I did notice that when I clicked on some of the links, I got the Geocities hompage. I will be updating my site soon and will add your page and that webring when I do. Thanks, Brooks
Subj: one more
Date: 97-09-19 01:40:55 EDT One more. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9046/webrings.html see ya round the web
Subj: oops
Date: 97-09-19 01:43:02 EDT Did I just send the same URL? try this one instead.http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9249/ See ya, http://members.wbs.net/homepages/s/t/y/styxnst0nes.html
Subj: You Do Good
Date: 97-09-12 20:46:32 EDT I like your work and I agree with it. Having been born and bred a Southern Baptist, it was a decision long in the making. However, there is absolutely nothing available that can prove we are incorrect in our opinion. I believe all those Christians are really sick people who desperately need approval and love of someone - or something. Anyway, all that aside. I'd like to ask why you bother? Why is it important to you to inform these people about the truths we already know? I don't envy your task but I am really curious. I generally leave people alone and pretty much hope they do the same with me. I'm not rude to people, but living in the "Way Deep South", the subject of religion eventually comes up. But I guess you already know the responses when you finally say, "I don't believe in God." By the way - if you choose to respond, please use my email address: (deleted) Thanks! Cathy
Cathy, Thank you for your letter. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you-I was on a trip. You were curious as to why I bother putting up a site like this. I'd like to think that I do it to help other people out. Since I see Christianity as false, I feel it is criminal that people waste their entire lives scampering around trying to follow its ridiculous dictates, and end up inflicting it upon their children. I think Christianity does a great deal of psychological harm to people. I have known people who were very faithful Christians who were very unhappy precisely because of their religious beliefs. Of course, I am not pretentious enough to think that this modest site will free multitudes of people from their religious delusions. If it helps just one person to question his or her faith and investigate the matter more deeply, then the effort I put into making this site will have been well worth it. As to leaving people alone, I am all for that too. I don't force anyone to read what I write. Thanks again for your letter. BrooksSubj: The Bible
As I was reading your responses to your e-mail, I thought of something. I am a believer in God and the Bible and for years since I was saved, I believed (because people told me) that the Bible is infallible. That made perfect sence to me since God is all-powerful and it's impossible for Him to make mistakes. Besides, the Bible even tells us it is inspired by God. We "believers" seem to interpret this work inspired as actually writting the Bible (through man). I am just "brainstorming", but doesn't the word inspired just mean "motivated"? I could be inspired by God through my faith in Him to write you this e-mail, but be wrong in context or accuracy but not be wrong in belief. Could the Bible be wrong in History, science, or even in content? It could if actually written by man that was "motivated" by God. As I said, this is just a thought and it might be way off. What do you think? Thanks, Rick
Date: 97-09-24 00:25:49 EDTResponse Rick, Hello. I hope you enjoyed my webpage. The idea that the Bible is a book inspired by God but written by fallible human beings is shared by many liberal Christians. I think it is far more reasonable to view the Bible that way than to pretend that it is inerrant, as fundamentalists do. But while I think liberal Christianity is more reasonable than fundamentalism, I still don't believe the stories or the claims made in the Bible. I don't believe that the earth was created 6000 years ago, I don't believe the Adam and Eve fable, I don't think a donkey spoke to a man, that people rose out of their graves, or that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. If there is a god somewhere who requires people to believe these things or be tortured for eternity, he or she or it is going to have to provide a little more compelling evidence than the Bible. Wouldn't you agree? Cheers, Brooks
Subj: A pew sitter is exactly what you were
Date: 97-09-28 22:05:15 EDT and nothing more than that. Shame on you for wasting all those precious years warming a pew, when you could have been truly touched by the Lord Jesus Christ. You will only know Him when you seek Him with all your heart. Perhaps too much time was spent thinking and not seeking the Lord. Christianity is not a religion it is a personal relationship with the Almighty. Religion is religion is religion is religion is religion. I have personally been healed in the Name of Jesus. And I will pray that you will be delivered from your bondage of slavery to sin and perhaps your heart will soften and you will want to seek Him with all and I mean all your heart. May God Bless You Abundantly, PnarusSecond e-mail from the same person Subj:
Date: 97-09-28 22:08:35 EDT It is me again....I will not waste my time trying to convince you. I am honored that I have something you do not, But I will pray that you will be broken.
Subj: Two Questions
Date: 97-10-02 17:55:09 EDT Hello, I am a Roman Catholic and I have been brousing the internet when I came across your web site. It is interesting to say the least. I was in your shoes until about 5 years ago. Before then, though, I knew that when I questioned this seminarian on who created God, that he would answer me "He always was and always will be". I just knew he would give me that non-answer. But that was then. I am curious to know a couple of things. First, you keep complaining about how there is no proof of the existence of God and therefore you cannot believe. I would like you to show me your proof that God does not exist. It is a two way street. Second, if you do not believe in God or His Son Jesus Christ, then how do you date the time in which you are now living? Do you live in the year 1997A.D. or the year 6,500,237.21? Thanks, Kenneth
Kenneth, So if I understand you correctly, you went from being a non-believer to a Roman Catholic within the last five years. What converted you to Roman Catholicism? I think you are missing the point of what I was saying about evidence. If there is no evidence for a claim, there is no reason to accept the claim as true. Wouldn't you agree that this is the only reasonable position to take? Let me turn your question around so that it becomes perfectly clear why this is so. Can you disprove Islam? Hinduism? Let's say that I believe in elves and you do not. I have nothing to present to you as evidence for elves, but that does not prevent me from believing in them. I have faith that they exist. Could you disprove the existence of elves to me? I would guarantee you that you could not. It is notoriously difficult to prove a negative. What if I said that these elves will torture faithless unbelievers unmercifully after they die? Would this claim make the existence of my elves more likely? I would graciously suggest to you that it would not. In the final analysis, your non-acceptance of my claims about elves would be completely justified. The person who makes the positive claim always has the responsibility of providing evidence for that claim-it is not the responsibility of the skeptic to disprove something which has not been proven in the first place. It is not the two-way street that you imply. The point you made about the calendar does not impress me. So what if we use the Roman calendar? Jews use their own calendar, as do Muslims. Does this make those religions true? Have a good one. BrooksSecond e-mail from the same person Subj: Reply
Date: 97-10-03 18:02:42 EDT Dear Brooks, You asked me, "So if I understand you correctly, you went from being a non-believer to a Roman Catholic within the last five years. What converted you to Roman Catholicism?" Well I'll tell you. But let me just say a few things first. I have not read everything in your website, but I read enough to see how you can be the way you are. I was reading your correspondence with one gentleman and he did the usual stuff of trying to convince you and he even went so far as to cut down my faith as a Roman Catholic. I can surely understand how someone can not believe. We cannot even agree! But I must say that a few dramatic things happened to me that Carl Sagan himself could not have given an explanation for. I was raised a Roman Catholic but I didn't understand much about it. My parents divorced and my dad remarried a Baptist. I went through the saved stuff twice because I didn't think it worked the first time. Well I guess it didn't work the second time either and I left Christianity in the dust! This was when I was a teenager. For many years I lived my entire life without acknowledging the existence of God. I went so far as to blaspheme anything associated with God. And for that matter I did not even think He existed which made it even more fun to razz the "goodie-two-shoes" Christians. I guess I developed my dad's understanding of God by thinking that since I cannot prove God exists I cannot prove He doesn't exist either. I actually lived as though there was no God, but when asked, I would always say that I couldn't prove or disprove His existence. This continued lifestyle went on for at least 16 years until my conversion, or comeback, to Roman Catholicism. I am going to tell you what happened but I know that it will not change your mind unless you let it. My closest friends and even some of my family members did not believe it and thought I was nuts! I must ask you if you have ever heard of apparitions, as with the Blessed Virgin Mary? They are supposedly happening all over the world and have been doing so for many years now. If you had, then have you ever heard of Conyers, Ga or Medjugorje? I didn't know what my sister was talking about when she called me in November of 1992. She was telling me about how Mary, the Mother of Jesus, was appearing to a lady named Nancy Fowler in Conyers, Georgia. You know what was so strange then was that I didn't think she was lying. I was one of a very few who did not think my sister was crazy. I do not know why but it caught my attention. I listened to her story. February of 1993, I decided to go to this Conyers and I dragged my mom with me. On February 13, my mom, sister, niece and nephew and myself went there. We were among a crowd of about 50,000 people to witness this "apparition". Guess what? It happened and I didn't see a thing! I immediately began to think that if God wanted me to change my belief with this then He's stupid. There would be no way I could go back to my home town and change my life from this. Everybody was taking pictures of clouds and taking pictures of the sun and saying this and saying that about miracles that had happened during this weekend and I saw nothing but people's imaginations running wild. Wishful thinking is all it was. But I had a strong urge to come back the next day, so we all spent the night and went back the next day. It was a beautiful sunny day. Only a couple of hundred people stayed for the next day--Valentine's Day. We were there most of the day and I kept hoping for some sign to prove that God existed. None ever happened. It was now about 3:00pm. I leaned over to my mom and asked her if she was ready to go back home. It took nearly 18 hours to drive there and I was very disappointed. It was then that a man opened the door where we were sitting and stated that Nancy had a visit from Mary again and she is going to tell us what Mary said in just a few moments. Cool! The visionary herself is going to talk to us few folks. I got my camcorder and raced to where she was. I got a good spot in front and began recording her. We were standing outside in an open field where a Cross was placed. Everything was going smoothly until this lady said something and pointed up. It was then that I turned around and began looking around. You can hear someone around me asking "What, what?" Another man answered him, "The sun. It's spinning. It pulsating." I then looked directly at the sun. It did not hurt my eyes. It was as if I had sunglasses on. I looked directly into the sun and watched it turn colors. The one I remember most was a light blue color. I watched the sun throwing off colors for about 4 minutes. When it was over, I looked at my mom and sister and they were flooded with tears. They could no believe what had just transpired. I was somewhat bewildered. It instantly convinced me that God exists. You would not believe how many people tried to tell me I was in a trance or hypnotized or that something faked us out. THEY WERE NOT THERE! It was in an open field--outside--no clouds--3:45pm February 14, 1993. I heard those stories about how God makes the sun spin to show that these sites of faith are real but I never dreamed it would happen to me. And to top it off something else happened. Again we were outside. There was a blast of rose smell that hit my senses. I heard that the smell of saintity is the rose smell--where Mary is, so too is Her smell of saintity. I took a deep breath and kept smelling them. It was heavenly. There were no pipes coming out of the ground spewing rose smell into the air. I couldn't believe what was going on. After we left the apparition site, we went to eat pizza. I was in a stupor state. For example, I cannot explain it. I went to Conyers with the belief that a woman has a right to an abortion, and came back understanding why she actually doesn't. God infused a bit of wisdom into my mind that I didn't ask for--it just happened. I came back home and turned my life 180 degrees. I threw away all my porno tapes (I had accumulated about 200 hours) and told my best friend that I had no desire to go to the bars with him. Even he thought I was crazy. The impact of what happened to me can be felt by me alone. I do not expect you to change the way you think because of what I have told you. It hasn't impressed too many people. I can surely understand because it seems so "out of this world". BUT IT HAPPENED. I also had several miraculous events happen to me and my sister and nephew in Medjugorje, Yugoslavia (which included a demon possession). I had never knew of the evil side until I witness a person possessed. I had my hand on his shoulder while a priest prayed over him. The priest kept saying "In the name of Jesus, I command you to leave this body!" I felt the possessed man growl deeply and say in this deep growling voice "I will not leave this body!" I am a Doctor and I know what voluntary muscle movement is and this man was not reacting in a voluntary way. It was like he was having a seizure while standing up. When another priest came to take him to the back of the church to perform the exorcism, you could see the struggle inside him. While he was walking, there was a stop-action movement. I mean that it seemed the man wanted to go but the demon inside him didn't. And the man was beet red. A friend who was there and witnessed it with me called him "gyro-man" because of the muscle movements. My friend was standing in front of him and said his temples were flaring just like some monster on TV. We were so afraid that we all found a priest to get prayed over. I was kinda afraid at first because I though that might happen to me too! Ha. Well anyway, I can go on forever. I appreciate you reading this. If you wish to comment on it, please do not try to justify what I went through. I have heard them all. I am of sound mind and body and I just don't look at suns and I just don't smell roses all the time. Thanks, Kenneth PS: There were other things that happened in the night skies at Medjugorje and other events we witnessed but that can take alot more of your time.Third e-mail from the same person Subj: Miracles
Date: 97-10-04 10:45:28 EDT Dear Brooks, You question the existence of God, or for that matter any miracles. I have a few to tell you about. Have you ever heard of the Miracle of the Eucharist at Lanciano? You know that as a Catholic I believe that the bread and wine I receive at Mass is really the Body and Blood of Jesus. When a priest in the 8th century A.D. began to doubt the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, he was surprised to see that following the consecration at Mass the bread and wine turned into flesh and blood. The Flesh has been kept in a Monstrance and the Blood has been kept in a crystal vase to be seen by all. In 1970 a scientific investigation discovered the following: --The Flesh is real human flesh. The Blood is real human blood. --The Flesh is muscular heart tissue (myocardium). --The Blood, type AB, contains proteins in the same normal portions as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of fresh normal blood. --There is no preservatives of any kind, yet the Species are incorrupt despite 1200 years of exposure to the atmosphere, various investigations and normal biological agents of the environment. The Blood also divided itself into five pellets. The pellets various sizes are as follows (I'm not exactly sure on this): two pellets of the same size weigh as much as the third which, together with the two smaller pellets weighs as much as the fourth which, together with the other three weighs as much as the fifth--or something of this sort. But this is not an isolated case. The miracles of the Eucharist have been occurring all over the world including the United States. I don't know about 1997 but in 1996 some priests were giving a Mass at a little girl's home. Her name is Audrey Santos. She was bedridden and comatose due to a swimming pool accident. The priest saying the Mass noticed a red cross in the middle of a consecrated Host. It was blood. It began to spread. This was documented live on video. And have you ever heard of Our Lady of Guadalupe? In 1531 Mary appeared to an Aztec peasant named Juan Diego. He was surprised, to say the least, and went to the Bishop. This happened several times and the Bishop finally said to show him a sign of her presence or don't come back. Juan told Our Lady this and She suggested that he go to the top of the hill and pick the flowers that were growing there and wrap them in his tilma (a cloak made out of cactus fibers) and take them to the Bishop. When Juan went back to the Bishop with all those flowers in his tilma, he opened it up and all the flowers fell to the floor. The Bishop was astounded at this site because it was December and no flowers were supposed to be growing in the wild that time of the year. But what most impressed him is the image that was placed on this cactus fiber tilma. It was the image of Mary. This image is still on display in Mexico City on the original tilma. Cactus fiber tilmas last at the most 50 years before they deteriorate. You do the math. Scientists have done their tests on the tilma as well. Even NASA could not identify the true colors of the tilma. They had no matches. Scientists discovered figures in the eyes; figures of 3 humans in Her eyes shown as a reflection. Did Juan do this? I don't think so. These are but a few stories I can tell you. But the greatest miracle is the miracle of life. I hope that there is more to life than what you suggest--we live and then we die and that's it. We are too wonderful of species to just "die". It's a great feeling to think that after we die we will be more alive than we are now. Talk to you again soon, Kenneth
Dear Ken, Thank you very much for your e-mails. I have been fiddling around with my computer after I messed up the software, so I have not been able to send out e-mail until now. You said that you had a camcorder at the event where the sun changed colors. Did you happen to get any video of it? If I had seen such a thing along with other people, it would certainly impress me, although I would not be sure what to make of it. Regarding the smell of roses: are you sure it wasn't someone's perfume? I am not sure how the smell of roses would validate the Bible. Your story about the man who was supposedly possessed by a demon is interesting. I am aware that exorcisms still go on today. I am not sure how you can conclude that this gentleman was, indeed, possessed by some supernatural entity. Couldn't he also be mentally ill, on drugs or putting on an act? I know that the Church used to torture mentally ill people because it believed these people were possessed by demons. This was a widespread belief, and many unfortunate people suffered terribly as a result. There is a principle of logic known as Occam's Razor. It says that one should always go with the explanation which requires the fewest assumptions. In the absence of any other information about this story, I would have to assume that this person was mentally ill. As to the claim that there were horns or something pulsing from his forehead-I think it is far more likely that this was the result of the observer's overactive religious imagination, or even that the person telling the story made it up. I am sorry if I you think I am being overly critical, but when I am confronted with a hearsay story like this, when I am totally removed from the events, and when I am completely bereft of any evidence to validate the claims, I can only assume that the story has a perfectly natural, normal explanation. Under these circumstances, it simply isn't reasonable to assume anything else. You also talked about transubstantiation. I know this is a beloved Catholic belief. Pagans used to have communion rites as well, and also believed in transubstantiation. Gee, I wonder where the whole idea came from? Anyway, I am not sure what exactly the miracle is here. You say that some church possesses some human blood and some heart tissue which some scientific test has confirmed to indeed be human blood and tissue. So what? What is the miracle? Yes, I know the story is that this flesh and blood formed from wafers and wine in the 8th century, but why should anyone believe this story? I would be impressed if, under controlled conditions, I could carefully and directly observe wafers and wine turning into flesh and blood, but I simply cannot believe in such a thing, and will never believe in such a thing, based on second-hand stories. As to the scientific tests on the flesh and blood supposedly showing its miraculous properties, who did these tests, where is this information available, and what is its significance? You say that there is a video of some blood forming a cross in a consecrated host. My question is this: how would you know this wasn't a trick of some kind? Throughout history religious leaders have fabricated various miracles and wonders to attract new followers and to pad their bank accounts. Today various Catholic churches have Virgin statues that actually shed what look like tears or blood. Interestingly enough, these churches have been unwilling to allow their statues to be subjected to scientific tests. Hmmm, I wonder why? Are you aware that throughout Europe in medieval times the Catholic Church possessed various pieces of the True Cross? Yes, they really did. And if you could have collected all the relics of the True Cross together from the various churches, you would have ended up with enough wood to build Noah's Ark. This video of blood spontaneously forming in what I take to be a communion wafer could very easily have been faked, and without further evidence with which to judge this claimed miracle, I have to assume that it was. The story about the Lady of Guadalupe was also interesting, but again, isn't it more reasonable to believe that the 16th story about the flowers is a fable, and that the non-deteriorating cactus fibers are simply replaced? Is there a place where I can obtain the NASA study of these cactus fibers, by the way? I am afraid I don't understand the significance of the three figures in the eyes, or what is so miraculous about them. All of the so called miracles you have cited could easily have been tricks performed by over-zealous Church leaders, misinterpretations of natural events, hallucinations arising from religious suggestibility, or simply willful falsehoods. In the absence of any other evidence, these are the explanations which require the fewest assumptions. In the absence of further information, these are the most reasonable explanations. If you think I am somehow being biased in my approach to your stories, I would suggest that if you heard similar miracle claims coming from Hindus, Muslims or Buddhists, you would regard them in the same way as I regard your miracle claims. What would I consider to be a true miracle? In the Bible, Jesus said that anyone with faith as small as a mustard seed could move mountains. He said that his followers could drink poison and not get sick. If Christians could perform these two feats, I would take them much more seriously. These are the types of "miracles" which cannot be easily faked or misinterpreted or hallucinated or lied about. Have a great day. Sincerely, BrooksFourth e-mail from the same person Subject: Re: Miracles
Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 9:01 AM Dear Brooks, I appreciate you reading my letters. I wish not to preach to you and say you must "accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior." I 'm sure you get that all the time. I am going to try to the best of my ability to answer your questions. You know, I have given Christianity alot of thought and I do understand that there are alot of ways to justify supernatural events when substantial evidence is absent. It's always like I would say "gotcha," and then where's the proof. So much is based on faith and that is what faith is--a belief in something not based on proof. I have just washed my hands of a group on the internet called "Former Catholics For Christ." The main lady cannot see the whole picture of Christianity and thinks everybody, including Mother Teresa, is going to hell. I cannot imaging that if God really exists, that He would send someone like Mother Teresa to hell because she, according to this nut, did not accept Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior. That really makes me angry at her arrogance and pride thinking that a once-made decision years ago has made her more of a child of God than Mother Teresa. And yet she calls herself a "Christian." We conversed back and forth for months--she'd make a statement and I would refute it from her only source, the Bible. If we cannot even understand the Truth based on Scripture, how on earth are we to convince someone like you there is a God? My brother doesn't know what to believe. He'll patronize me to my face and then behind my back he'd make his true confessions and say there is no God. I work with him and he sees my life and it hasn't convinced him yet, so I am not going to expect to be "Mr. Pious Christian man" and "Save your soul." I am going to try to explain how my life has changed because of a few events. Let me do alittle research and see if I can find some answers to your questions. Talk to you later. Kenneth
Tue Oct 14 21:21:06 1997 Dear Brooks, Get ready for alot of information. This is the tip of the iceberg. There have been X-rays done on weeping statues, but I haven't had time to research those. I am a Chiropractor and I have been swamped with paperwork this past week and it appears to continue through this week also. I have seminars to attend and, as such, I cannot respond as quickly as you and I would like. I hope this information will be helpful to you in whatever way possible. Please remember that everything can be refuted by a skeptic; that is easy. But it is very difficult sometimes to believe in something that doesn't make sense. That is faith. If all our questions were answered, there would be no room for faith. And there certainly would be no room for free-will. This is a gift from God. He let's us make up our own minds. That is why we send ourselves to hell--He doesn't. Anyway, here is some reading material that you may find interesting. By the way, I had a rosary turn golden color on my second trip to Conyer's. It happened to my mom on our initial visit there. My niece was looking at my mom's rosary and was bragging on how pretty it was and then she said, "Is it supposed to be this color?" Well my mom started crying when she saw it (she heard about rosaries turning golden color before) and I just thought that it was wishful thinking; that she wanted people to look at her rosary and say "Wow, Cecilia, you were really blessed!" I didn't believe it at first thinking that it was that color all along. But to my amazement, that was only the beginning of one heck of a Valentine's Day.An Overview of the Medical and Scientific Testing of visionary Nancy Fowler, Conyer's Georgia As far as the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, you can go to the website http:/ng.netgate.net/~norberto/materdei.html for additional information. Also the book "The Image of Guadalupe" by Jody Brant Smith, Mercer University Press, 1994. Barnes and Nobel can track it down easily by the following: ISBN 0-86554-421-2. There have been similar tests performed on the 6 visionaries in Medjugorji as had been done to Nancy Fowler. I haven't looked for the results but I have heard about them. If you wish I can try to dig up this information also. And maybe you can search the web and gather your own information. Remember to be cautious because there are alot of weird stuff out there. Not all things "Christian" and "Catholic" are what they seem. I always use discernment when I read material out there. I hope this helps. If you wish, please investigate further. Ask more questions. Take care and God bless, Kenneth.
More stuff--Medjugorje
Date: 97-10-15 06:35:41 EDT Dear Brooks, Here is some information about Medjugorje I got form the website www.medjugorje.org Remember, our Lady is called the Queen of Peace. When she first appeared to these visionaries way back in 1981, she was asking them to pray for peace. They couldn't understand what she was talking about since they already knew peace. Remember the Bosnia war? She knew what was about to hit their country.Med jugorje is in Bosnia (former Yugoslovia). Discernment and Scientific Study of Visionairies in Medjugorje from the Medjugorje StarTalk to you soon. God bless, Kenneth
Subj: Hello
Date: 97-10-26 20:41:04 EST Dear Brooks, I just thought I'd drop you a line. I haven't heard from you and I was wondering what you thought about all the info I sent you? You are probably as busy as me and haven't gotten around to reading it yet. I have been on a 3-day seminar for my practice. Man, I hate those. Anyway, get back in touch with me. Kenneth
Subj: Re: Hello Date: 97-10-27
02:21:25 EST Ken, Yes, I read the article about the lady who had her brain waves checked by a *Catholic* doctor while she was supposedly having visions and hearing the voice of the Virgin Mary. I will give you a full report on what I think of this and the other info within a week. I must say that this is the kind of stuff that I am most impressed with, modern day miracles, or claimed miracles. In any case, I will give you a full review of my thoughts soon. I appreciate your information. Sincerely, Brooks
Dear Ken, Thank you very much for all the information you provided. I am sorry it has taken awhile to respond to it. I enjoyed reading the account of the woman whose brain waves changed and whose eye movements stopped when she claimed to be communicating with the Virgin Mary, as well as the description of the visionaries who would not blink and felt no pain during their visions. While there was a bunch of medical terminology bandied about, and many people with important-sounding titles attested to their findings being miraculous, there are still a couple of obstacles to overcome before I can accept these stories as evidence for the Virgin Mary. First of all, I don't know if "eye-movement stopped" means Nancy did not blink for 45 minutes. That would certainly be amazing (as it would be for the visionaries in the other story). If it means just that she stared at the wall for 45 minutes, I would not be impressed. Secondly, I am not a brain specialist so I am a little confused as to what the changed brain waves indicate. I really don't know what significance this has. Do people have to earn medical degrees in order to understand miracles and become Catholics? If indeed the change in brain wave activity was such an incredible medical phenomena, are there other tests that have been done on these subjects by additional brain specialists? Have there also been further tests done by radiation specialists to validate and examine the appearance of radiation during Nancy's visions? Have Mr. Tesoriero, Dr. Sanchez, Dr. Petridesor or Dr. Castanono submitted their astounding findings to peer reviewed publications? Typically, when a scientist or doctor makes an incredible discovery, this is the procedure that is followed. Since these miracles were supposedly observed in 1993, by now there should have been a multitude of other tests on these people by a variety of doctors, and a flood of peer-reviewed articles on the subject. What I am looking for is some confirmation that what these doctors claimed happened really happened and that what they observed constitutes a medical miracle of some kind. You can understand my skepticism. I simply cannot embrace these stories as true and accept these doctors' conclusions as accurate based on a couple of articles taken off of the Conyers Apparitions website. Do you know of any articles on this topic in a respected, peer-reviewed medical journal? Another problem I have with this information is that in the stories no one but the people under observation are said to see and hear the Virgin Mary. Even if the medical tests showed conclusively that these subjects' brain waves were highly abnormal, this would not establish that they were in fact seeing, hearing and communicating with Catholicism's Virgin Mary. Maybe they just have highly abnormal brain waves, and either hallucinated or made up their visions and conversations with the Blessed Mother. It has happened before. Putting that aside for the moment, the notion that the Virgin Mary would try to communicate her message to the world using such a ineffectual venue belittles Catholic beliefs. These miraculous events reportedly occurred in 1993, yet I had never heard of them till now, and I suspect that the vast majority of the people on the planet still have not received this communication from the Virgin. Surely a supernatural being who wanted its existence known to the world would use far more convincing displays than the obscure second-hand testimony of people with abnormal brain waves and 1000 yard stares. The very notion that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good being would expect people to accept its existence based on such ambiguous "evidence" is a little hard to swallow. An example of this "evidence" is detailed in one of the reports: "During the same one-fifth of a second, there are simultaneous kneeling and the cessation of eye movements. There is no eye movement during the entire apparition (from 3 to 45 minutes). There is also the simultaneous raising of their heads and gazing upwards while remaining fixated on a spot moving upwards when the apparition is finishing." I mean, couldn't the Virgin do better than this? Move a mountain or something? Apart from the non-blinking eyes and the questionable brain wave and radiation anomalies, the stuff described in the stories seems a bit lame. I also had difficulty with the fact that Dr. Sanchez works for a Catholic diocese. There would appear to be a conflict of interest somewhere in there. You included a report about a group in Medjugorje which watched the sun perform various acrobatic tricks. I would love to see a video of that. Didn't you say that you had a video camera at one of these occurrences? Were you able to get any video of the sun flipping around? Finally, you sent me list with the following type of items: "1986: 583,400 Holy Communions were distributed. No information on concelebrants is available." I don't know if this was a mistake or what. I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Appreciate your efforts. Brooks
Subj: Nothing much
Date: 97-10-29 11:57:46 EST Dear Brooks, I enjoy conversing with you. It is somewhat of a breath of fresh air, considering the bashing I took from the "holier than thou" group of "used to be" Catholics. I am going to investigate some things further. I never had done this much investigating over these issues before since I saw firsthand the miracle of the sun, etc. Now you are going to think "gotcha" when I tell you that I do have the miracle of the sun on my camcorder, but you cannot actually see it spinning. It didn't dance around, it was just spinning and throwing off colors. As I said before, the main color I remember was a baby blue color. My sister remembers so much more colors, yet she didn't smell the roses. I saw one color and smelt the roses. Also remember, I got snot-slinging drunk on New Year's Eve and this happened February 14th. I'll be happy to let you see a copy of this video. You can hear the reactions of the people around me. However, I let other members of my family and some of my friends see this and it didn't do diddly to change their minds, so I don't expect it to change yours either. I can also include a copy of actual apparitions by several of the visionaries in Medjugorje. By the way, there has been these kinds of events shown on television before--I guess you just missed them. They've been shown periodically on "Unsolved Mysteries." And there was a special on Fox about a year ago when that lady who plays an angel on "Touched by an angel" hosted it. This program did show some camcorder events in Medjugorje that could not be explained by experts...but they tried anyway. What was also shown was, during one day when Mary was appearing in Conyers, rose pedals began falling from the sky like rain. My sister has a friend that was there during that time. You have asked about peer review publications. I have been in touch with the office of Dr. Sanchez and he is supposed to get back in touch with me within the next few days. Also the event of Fatima in Portugal on October 13, 1917 was reported in newspapers across the world. I am going to see if it was reported in the New York Times. It is the only newspaper on microfilm in my local library. This event ties into our modern era. There were prophecies from this apparition that have already been fulfilled, one being WWII. You also asked "Do people have to earn medical degrees in order to understand miracles and become Catholics?" The answer is no. Even though the event at Fatima was approved by the Catholic Church, a Catholic is under no obligation to believe in it. Medjugorje has been occurring since 1981 and the Church has yet to decide on it's authenticity. It is very thorough in it's investigations of apparition sites. But since I went there firsthand while the war was still going on, I saw what these visionaries go through. If this event was not supernatural, they would have thrown in the towel long ago. There are tours going to Medjugorje every month, sometimes many times a month, and they have to answer the same old questions over and over and over and over and over again and this has occurred for 16 years. Now I am going to talk to Dr. Sanchez directly and probably have your answer to these peer review articles. My brother just informed me that he called yesterday while I was out. We are both Chiropractors so since I left the message that I was a doctor, I figured he would get in touch with me--he tried anyway. You also said that it was hard to believe "...that the Virgin Mary would try to communicate her message to the world using such a ineffectual venue belittles Catholic beliefs." I don't know what you mean by that. I understand this to allow room for faith. If she appeared to every human being on the face of the planet, there would be no room for one's free-will on making a decision on whether to believe or not. But even in the event this occurs, there will still be those who would not believe. That is noted in her messages. I guarantee you that most Protestants think this is the work of Satan. You also said, "...couldn't the Virgin do better than this? Move a mountain or something?" when you were describing eye movement and kneeling of the visionaries. Again I repeat what I said above. Scripture says that there will be those who think of the spiritual as foolishness. I for one used to. And if you ever went to Conyer's you may experience a miracle for yourself. The greatest miracle was my conversion. It wasn't any of these supernatural events. What they did was provide a foundation to fall back on because there have been many instances that I would begin to wonder whether what I saw actually happened and I would stick that video tape in and it would be a reminder for me. It isn't easy tring to live your life as a Christian. I used the analogy of sin and being a Christian to a flowing river--the river being sin. When a person jumps into the river of sin and flows along with the current, they do not feel the power of the current. But when they realize that they are flowing down the river of sin and decide to change their ways, they then realize how hard it is to swim against it. And the more they try to swim against it the more tired they become and then they give in and float downstream again. It isn't easy trying to overcome our sinful nature. We float downstream and realize that that stream only leads to hell, so we regroup ourselves through prayer and confession and Mass and begin the swim back upstream. Jesus never promised us a rose garden, He only promised us that if we followed Him, we must take up our own cross. In other words, we must accept trials and tribulations. Through sufferings we grow in humility and in love. Sorry, I didn't mean to preach to you. Anyway, if you wish I would love to send you the videos I have and you can decide one way or the other. I can almost guarantee you that it will be strictly up to you to decide. I do not believe that a lightening bolt is going to come out of the sky and strike you into belief. It begins with the lowering of the defense shields: "Let go and let God". It's like Star Trek when Scotty tells Captain Kirk, "Our defense shield are lowering!" They get alittle concerned and scramble to raise them again. They cannot allow God to enter, they must keep the defense shields up. "Oh now, this is kinda making sense. Quick, get those defense shields up!" Right? At lease that is what I did. However, when I went to Conyer's the first time, I was very skeptical but I didn't have the "PROVE IT GOD" attitude. I think that deep inside, I was hoping something would happen to convince me, and it did! God is not aggressive because He doesn't want to override our wonderful gift of free-will. He speaks to us in subtle ways. Why? Well I think it is because He wants us to rest in Him. He wants us to be still and listen to Him when He whispers to us. If you are like me, we wake up to television, drive with the car stereo on, go to work with noise there, go home with the stereo on, and then finish the day with the television. How are we supposed to listen to His whispers? Ha! Talk to you soon. By the way, I hope you don't feel worried in any way by giving your address to me so I can send you these videos. It is just between you and me, okay? Kenneth
Ken, Here is an article on miracles taken from the Secular Web. It touches on some of the subjects which your e-mails discussed, including the dancing sun. I figured that you would be interested in getting another skeptic's appraisal of miracle claims. I might want to see that video, although judging by the effect it had on your family members, it probably would not make run down to the local Catholic church and ask for Jesus' forgiveness. I am curious to hear what you think of this info and I am also interested to see what you find regarding the peer-reviewed medical studies. Thanks for your efforts. Sincerely, Brooks
Subj: Great site.
Date: 97-10-08 07:45:43 EDT Hey Man, I liked your site, really got a kick out of your email conversations with the believers. Got a thought for you. Have you ever thought of religion as a genetic adaptation to a meaningless world? Before the benefits of civilization that add so much to life's enjoyment, might not religion be an anti-depressant against fatalism and that general feeling of "my monkey mate is dead, I have a nasty infection and I'm only going to live to twenty." That's my thought anyways. I've always viewed religion, all supernatural credulity actually, to be the psychological version of the appendix. They were both there originally to help fend off the rigors of primitive life but are now unnecessary and prone to infection. I mention this because the Dawkin's Virus of the Mind idea is so popular lately and I would suspect organic as well as cultural causes for a phenomena as entrenched as religious irrationality. I saw a book alluded to once that bore the title "The Neuropsychological Bases of God Beliefs," but I've never been able to find it. I was hoping for all sorts of "the Reverend didn't find religion nearly so compelling after that industrial accident." Like I said, I never did find it. Have you ever heard of any neurological work done in this direction? Well, anyways, liked your site and hope you keep it up. Take it easy, Jer
Jer, I am glad you enjoyed the site. I agree that for most people God belief is a way of coping with death and the vagaries of life. Religion gives people a sense of control over nature, life and death that they can get in no other way. (Religion gives people) an intoxicating feeling of power-and they deeply resent it when you try to talk them out of it by pointing out all the problems with their religious claims. Trying to get them just to acknowledge that the Bible has mistakes in it is like trying to pull teeth. I am just stating the obvious here. I really liked Dawkins Mind Virus article-I think he hit the nail squarely on the head. Christians are always saying, "Well how do you explain the fact that most people believe in God?" Next time I get that, I will simply direct them to the Dawkins article. I have not seen that book, unfortunately. Have a good one, and remember-let go, let God. : ) Brooks