In this area I am posting e-mail sent to me by visitors to this site. If you want to tell me that Christianity is true, have the foresight to explain how you know this. I have little patience for circular arguments, rationalizations, prophecy, internal personal experiences, arguments from authority, ad hominem personal attacks, threats of hellfire, faith, etc. If you want to convince me that Christianity is true, please attempt to use rational arguments and valid evidence. Send e-mail to Tekministry@aol.com
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Subj: I agree
Date: 97-03-08 23:55:29 EST I agree with your concept.
Subj: In the name of Jesus
Date: 97-03-09 01:09:07 EST It is evident that you have taken the Scriptures out of context. The bible does not condone evil, or beating your children. The bible uplifts women. I do believe that you may become one of the best witnesses that the Bible truly is the Word of God. Read Acts. God bless you.
I beg to differ with your statements. The Bible does justify the beating of children. Remember that favorite chestnut, "Spare the rod and spoil the child"? Comes from the Bible. Women are not uplifted by the Bible in any way, shape or form. Beginning with Eve in Genesis, the Bible belittles, depreciates and degrades them in every way you can imagine. And in some ways you can't. They are described as deceivers, whores and witches. They are told to shut up in church and men are warned not to touch them. During war raids, women are slaughtered en masse by Moses' soldiers and virgin girls are taken as the spoils of battle. A woman who appears not to be a virgin on her wedding night must be stoned to death, according to Jehovah, but nothing is said about men. A woman who gives birth to a girl baby is "unclean" for many days longer than if she had a baby boy. Remember that commandment "thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife nor thy neighbor's ass"? In the eyes of the Bible writers, a woman is no better than a farm animal. For a fuller appreciation of how the Bible treats women, I suggest you crack the damn book open and read it."As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."Paul-1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Paul-Timothy 2:11
Subj: Faith
Date: 97-03-09 01:28:27 EST Dear sir, After reading your page, I was just going to leave and go elsewhere on the web, and forget about your site. However, I did a bit of thinking. You put a lot of work into your site. You included some well-thought out arguments, and some particularly interesting gibes at the bottom of your pages. Then I thought... You have been to all this work, you have read that much of the Bible (re: Your 'Evil Biblical Stupidity' page), and still you reject it. Among several things, sir, this makes you responsible. You have read that much of the Bible, just looking for so-called 'faults', and things that can confuse people, and still you choose to ignore whatever doesn't fit with your ideas. In point of fact, most of the verses you chose (esp. the OT ones), do look rather strange when taken out of context, and read from a 20th Century point of view. But still, they are totally out of context. Think about that, if you would sir. Sir, I was just going to forget about you, and your site, but I thought of this verse, from John 3:18: "He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." You put on the bottom of one of your pages.. send .. threats of eternal hellfire. Well, sir, I'm not threatening you with eternal hellfire, instead, I would warn you for the love of your eternal soul, that it isn't a bunch of crackpot 'faithfuls' that would threaten you or such, but the Almighty God Himself who points these things out to you. Please sir, consider these things the next time you go trolling for 'questionable' verses to put on your web page. Feel free to return mail me with any questions you may have. Thank you for your time in reading this.
Thank you for your response. Explain to me what the "context" is for the quotes I took from the Bible. What is the "context" that justifies slavery, torture, rape and murder? Why should one assume that the Bible is anything other than a book slapped together by men? Why do Christians believe it comes from some perfect supernatural entity? I can understand why Christians would WANT to believe this, and how a lifetime of indoctrination would allow them to believe this, but I can't possibly understand how this could be true. No Christian has ever explained to me why he or she believes that the Bible is god-inspired. Asserting it is so does not make it so. Threats of eternal hellfire do not make it so. Neither do promises of eternal life. Have a nice day. Sincerely,
BrooksSecond e-mail from the same person Subj:Re: your e-mail...
Date: 97-03-14 "Thanks you for your response. I am curious what context the Bible quotations I cited should be taken in? How is one to judge? Why should one..." By context, I meant that you would take their meaning from the text it is in. A lot of verses could have their meanings confused if you put them by themselves. "...assume that the Bible is anything other than a book slapped together by men?" Why to believe the Bible is not just slapped together by a bunch of guys, but instead by God? Well there's several reasons. Number 1, it makes sense. When I read it, there's answer to my questions. You can find them, if you look unbiased. Now, I saw a list of the top liturature in the world, and the Bible as #1. It said, even if you're not "religious", you should read it for the beautiful poetry and best examples of the English language around. I agree. Also, every single prophecy made by the Bible came true. Every single one. Not one was proved wrong, or didn't happen. No fact of science ever discovered proves anything described by the Bible as not happening. Now, you say, maybe that just makes for a good book, that's 'co-incidently' nice and right. Well, there were over 40 (I read) writers of the Bible. It all fits. Right together. If you take 40 writers, and say write.. What they wrote wouldn't look anything like the others. And the old manuscripts found show the dedication scribes had in copying out the copies of the Bible. "Why do Christians believe it comes from some perfect supernatural entity? I can understand why Christians would WANT to believe this, and how a lifetime of indoctrination would allow them to believe this, but I can't possibly understand how this could be true. And no Christian has ever explained to me..." What stops you from understanding? Your own 'common sense', or have you seen bad examples of 'Christianity'. I suppose I could agree that there's been a lot that could turn you off from Christianity, so to speak. Some of the churches and their leaders haven't been that great. Well, I suppose I should mention that being in a church, of even a famous church leader makes you a Christian. The word is Salvation. Read John 3:16, for example. You know, if you only looked at the papers and what they publish, I can see why you'd get that picture of Christianity. How many Christians have you talked to on this topic, btw? "...why they believe that the Bible is God-inspired. Asserting it is so does not make it so. And threats of eternal hellfire do not make it so. Neither do promises of eternal life." That's basically true. The fact that it is God-inspired makes it so.
Thank you for taking the time to offer your reasons why one should believe the claims of Christianity. I am pleased with the effort you put into your e-mail, but I am not converted yet. You still did not answer my question: what "context" justifies slavery, torture, rape and murder? Help me out here because I am confused. Tell me what context would justify such bestiality. Simply because the Bible is widely owned does not make it god-inspired.The Bible makes sense to me too, as a collection of books written by men. What answers are you finding in the Bible? What are your questions? Explain it to me because I have read the Bible and I don't understand what you are seeing.The Christian argument that the Bible comes from some supernatural entity because of prophecy fulfillment just doesn't work. Even if a prediction is made and comes true, that does not mean the prediction came from a god. Beyond that, how does one determine if a biblical event which is said to fulfill a prophecy actually occurred? How do we know that the people who edited the Bible and who wrote the stories did not insert prophecies after the fact? For example, the author of Matthew claims that Jesus was born of a virgin, supposedly satisfying a prophecy in Isaiah. If you read Isaiah, you see that this prophecy had nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus and was fulfilled a few paragraphs later within Isaiah itself. Besides that, Isaiah's reference was to a young woman, not a virgin. Even allowing that this was a prophecy for a virgin birth of Jesus, how would we possibly know Mary was a virgin? It is very easy to make an absurd claim. It is another thing altogether to show that the claim has some basis in reality. If you want a further explanation of why biblical "prophecies" are completely worthless, check out Farrell Till's article on Prophecy. Your assertion that no fact of science "proves anything described by the Bible as not happening" is wrong. The Bible makes the earth out to be flat-remember when the Devil takes Jesus onto a high mountain and shows him all the kingdoms of the earth? This is only possible on a flat earth. Well, it is obvious today that the earth is a sphere, not flat. The Catholic Church imprisoned Galileo for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. Why? Because according to God's perfect word, the earth was the center of the universe and everything else revolved around it. Today we know that God's perfect word is wrong about this. Similarly, it is wrong about the age of the earth. If one is to look at the genealogies of Jesus presented in the New Testament, genealogies which go back to Adam, it is made manifest by the Bible writers that the earth is only a few thousand years old. Throughout the last 2000 years various Church leaders have tried to compute the exact day the earth was created based on the Bible, and all of their dates were pegged at some point within the last 10,000 years. Today we know that these calculations were completely off the mark, and that the earth did not arise in the manner the Bible describes. These examples of the Bible conflicting with and losing to science are just the tip of the iceberg. How do the writings of these 40 writers all fit together? Is it because most of them mention the Hebrew god at some point or another? If that is why you say they all fit together, well, so what? If it is for some other reason, please explain what it is and how this makes the Bible the word of a god.I used to be a Christian and I have talked to dozens of Christians, in person and over the Internet. I have read Christian apologetics. I listen to Christian radio. And yet I have never seen or heard a valid Christian argument for belief-just tortured, Rube Golberg rationalizations, biblical blatherings, linguistic contortions, absurd analogies, ad hominem attacks on atheists and rank emotionalism. Never anything of substance."That's basically true. The fact that it is God-inspired makes it so." So the "fact" that the Bible is god-inspired makes it god-inspired. I see. How could I have been so blind? Brooks
Third e-mail from the same person Subj: RE: your e-mail to Evil Biblical Stupidity
Date: 97-03-18 You present some strong arguments as well. I'll try answer them as best as possible."You still did not answer my question: what 'context' justifies slavery, torture, rape and murder? Help me out here because I am confused. Tell me what context would justify such bestiality." What I know is, when the Jewish people came into the land of Canaan, they were to take it. It was their's because God gave it to them. Nowadays, the context isn't there. No slavery, torture, rape, and murder. Those days are gone.
"The Bible makes sense to me too, as a collection of books written by men. What answers are you finding in the Bible? What are your questions? Explain it to me because I have read the Bible and I don't understand what you are seeing." Answers to questions, yes. Like, how did this world come to be? Seriously, do you in evolution? Why are we here? Right, the Bible gives these sort of answers. Seriously this may seem a poor explanation, or lame, but that's what there is.
"The Christian argument that the Bible comes from some supernatural entity because of prophecy fulfillment just doesn't work. Even if a prediction is made and comes true, that does not mean the prediction came from a god. Beyond..." 1 Prediction. Ok. At least 37.. That all came true.. Pretty hard to deny.
"...that, how does one determine if a biblical event which is said to fulfill a prophecy actually occurred? How do we know that the people who created the Bible did not insert prophecies after the fact? For example, the author of..." That's where the different writers came in. Different people wrote different books, and all of the prophecies laid out about the coming Messiah were fulfilled in the Lord Jesus.
"...Matthew claims that Jesus was born of a virgin, supposedly satisfying a prophecy in Isaih. If you read Isaiah, you see that this prophecy had nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus and was fulfilled a few paragraphs later within..." They all referred to the Lord Jesus Himself, though, like some of the Psalms were spoken by David.
"...Isiaih itself. Besides that, Isaiah's reference was to a young woman, not a virgin. Even allowing that this was a prophecy for Jesus, how would we possibly know Mary was a virgin? It is very easy to make an absurd claim. It..." Hmm.. A bit confused here. Is. 7:14, 'Behold a virgin shall concieve, and bring forth a son.' Which version of the Bible do you read?
"...is another thing altogether to show that claim has any basis in reality. If you want a further explanation of why biblical "prophecies" are completely worthless, check out Farrell Till's article on the subject." Where could I find that, if I may ask?
"Your assertion that no fact of science 'proves anything described by the Bible as not happening' is wrong. The Bible makes the earth out to be flat-remember when the Devil takes Jesus onto a high mountain and shows him all the kingdoms of the earth? Well, it is obvious today that the earth is actually a sphere." Both the Lord Jesus and the Devil were and are rather powerful people who didn't really need a flat earth to see everything, so that interpitation isn't really neccessary. I suppose they went up on a mountain so there'd be no people there. Also, one of the temptations was to the Lord that He cast Himself down so an angel could catch Him.
"The Catholic Church imprisoned Galileo for saying that the earth revolved..." The Catholic Church is not the be-all and end-all of Christianity. I really doubt most of the Catholics are saved. I mean, their Pope claims to believe in 'Progressive Evolution/Creation', doesn't he? What does that tell you? Not exactly a paragon of Christian beliefs, imho.
"...around the sun because a biblical interpretation of reality made it clear to the people of the day that the earth was the center of the universe. Today we..." The earth may have been the center of God's attention in this universe, the actual physical center. Sir Isaac Newton, if I recall correctly, was one of the supporters of the sun as the center of the universe, and he was a Christian. So not all Christians supported the 'flat-Earth' theory. Not many nowadays do either, I think.
"...know that the Bible is wrong about this. Likewise, if one is to look at the genealogies of Jesus presented in the New Testament, genealogies which go back to Adam, it is made manifest by the Bible writers that the earth was only a few thousand years old. This is false. Throughout the last 2000 years various..." The Bible is right.. Around 4000/5000 years or so from the genealogies, yes.
"...Church leaders have tried to compute the exact day the earth was created based on the Bible, and all of their dates were pegged at some point within last..." They're people who make mistakes. The Bible is the only Divinely-originated Scripture, so their calculations have no God-inspiration to them
"...10,000 years. Today we know these calculations were off by a wide margin. These examples of the Bible conflicting with and losing to science are just the tip of the iceberg." Of course the Bible conflicts in some places... what other examples would you have, btw?
"How do the writings of these 40 writers all fit together? Is it because most of them mention the Hebrew god at some point or another? If that is why you say they all fit together, well, so what? If it is for some other reason, please explain what it is and how this makes the Bible the word of a god." Their words all give praise to the one God. All of scripture divinely points to the Lord Jesus in some form or another.
"I used to be a Christian and I have talked to dozens of Christians, in..." You used to be a Christian? No, I don't think so. You went to a Christian church, or claimed to be a Christian, but from the sounds of it, I really doubt there was ever a time when you put your trust on the Lord Jesus as your Saviour and became a Christian.
"...person and over the Internet. I have read Christian apologetics. I listen to Christian radio. And yet I have never seen or heard a valid Christian argument for belief. Just tortured, Rube Golberg rationalizations, biblical..." I might also point out something. God has given us real facts and evidence about things we can check. Things we can see, and then we can believe Him about things we can't see, like sin and salvation from it.
You are rationalizing away the violence portrayed in these primitive Bible stories by saying it was justified by God's will. If there was actually a god who condoned slavery, stealing and murder, that god would be evil.
Sorry, evolution by natural selection has been observed directly. End of discussion on that point.
37 prophecies actually came true? Really? How do you know this? Again, check out a discussion of prophecy at Farrell Till's site. Here is another article on the subject. This may come as a shock to you, but the book of Isiaih was originally written in Hebrew, not English, and the word which was used in Isiaih's so-called prophecy was "almah" which means young woman-not virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah." The NRSV has the correct translation, as does the Torah, but the King James version of the Bible mistranslated "almah." Gee, I wonder why. For more information, read this.
The earth is at least 4.5 billion years old, not 6000 years. You are wrong. Period.
For a list of the ways in which the Bible is contradicted by science, go here. Or here.
When I was a kid I believed that the Christian god was real and I prayed to him. I wasn't aware that being a Christian required anything else.
I have yet to hear of these wondrous facts and evidences which show your god to be real. Care to elaborate?
Take it easy,
Brooks
Subj: I feel sorry for you...
Date: 97-03-11 01:28:41 EST Hi. My name is **** I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience with Christians, but you shouldn't attack something that you don't understand. If Christianity is so bogus, why do you think it's the largest religion in the world?! And why do you think that more people believe in SOMETHING rather than nothing? I don't have time to explain everything that I know about the Bible and Christianity, but if you have any questions, feel free to e-mail me anytime. I will try to answer them to the best of my ability. But, how are Christians being conned? I'm a United Methodist myself, and I know for a fact that the money I choose to give to my church have put to VERY good use. For one, they pay scholarships for students who are needy (myself included). Secondly, I've had a chance to go on numerous worktrips because of the generosity of the church. The UMC recently built a university in Zimbabwe for those in Africa who want to achieve higher education. And so much more is given to relief efforts and for whoever asks! Of course, that doesn't mean that we give money to anyone. Have you also noticed that the greatest minds in the world were Christian? To name a few: Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, C.S. Lewis (you should check out his book MERE CHRISTIANITY), George Washington, William Shakespeare, ...there are many others that I just can't think of offhand. If they can accept God, why can't you? Are you arrogant enough to say that your mind is superior to those mentioned and there's no possible way that you could be wrong? I'm not saying that I couldn't be wrong either. All I'm saying is, in my life experiences (which is what it all boils down to) I've seen so many miracles (children falling out of 3-story buildings and getting up without a scratch; a boy getting hit by a car and getting up without a scratch; a girl whose doctor said she would never be able to walk again who is now running every morning, etc...) that have all been attributed to God. Also, what harm is there in helping other people? What greater satisfaction can one have than knowing that you've helped to make someone's life a little better? The underlying cause of MANY problems is pride. And from pride, comes selfishness. How many wars do you think have been caused because of pride? Do you think that I'm exaggerating? Think about it closely. Have you read the whole Bible? If you haven't read it all, and haven't taken the time to study it closely instead of taking every word literally, who are you to make a judgment on something that billions of people believe in? I have a personal reason for believing in God. My father used to be very abusive. He beat me with a broom because I had slammed my books on the table. When the broom broke, he got another one. When the second one broke, he finally stopped. He stepped on my younger sister's head when she was 6-years-old and had to be sent to the hospital. When he would get mad, he would throw dishes at my sisters and I and my brother. That was about 7 years ago. Today, he's going to Morgan State University for philosophy and he's studying to be a pastor. He hasn't struck any of us for years and he works so hard to provide for all of us. The truth is, he gives credit to God. Isn't that amazing, that someone who has accomplished so much would put his own ego aside and give credit to a being that no one can see or touch? Well, that's because it's true. Who do you think created you? Do you seriously believe that you came from a hole in the sea? If you look at evolution closely, you will see that evolution supports God's existence instead of refuting it. For example, look at Darwin's Theory of evolution. The species of today have survived because they were the most fit for their environment. That means that they were born with the best traits. Scientific evidence proves that physical changes to an organism cannot be transmitted into genetic information (if I get my hair dyed blonde, then my children will still have black hair, they won't have blonde). Then that means that someone KNEW what the environment was going to be like and designed organisms to have the necessary genes for survival in their environment. That someone was God. You don't deserve to burn in hell. You just need to be better educated and informed. OK. I know that there are many contradictions in the Bible. That is certainly true. However, you have to realize that God wrote through people, who are flawed. The essence of God can be seen through the words of the authors of the Bible, but you can't take everything literally and say that everything single word in the Bible is God's law forever. You have to learn how to separate man from God. The fact is, the Bible is written by 40 different people in 4 different languages in 10 different countries on 3 different continents in a span of 2,000 years. YET, they all have the same message. God is our creator, father, judge, redeemer, and provider. God does love us all, that is true, but love doesn't mean that he will give us what we want all of the time. The ONLY difference between Christians and non-Christians, is that Christians are forgiven. We sin like anyone else. We are hardly perfect, which brings me to another point that you can't judge God by the actions of man. The only difference is, we acknowledge our creator and He forgives us, endlessly. He will certainly forgive you too, but you have to ask. Just think about it? If you had a son or daughter and they didn't acknowledge you, would you even pay attention to what they were doing let alone keep providing for them? Of course not! But God and His angels are always watching us and just waiting for us to call out to God and acknowledge Him! But you have to make that decision. No one is going to force you. If God went to every human being and threatened to kill them if they didn't believe, of course everyone would believe in Him then. But God says that whoever has faith without seeing is truly blessed. That's why Jesus told people not to tell other people about the miracles that he was performing because then they would definitely believe. But he wanted to see whether they had faith without seeing miracles. Being a Christian is about acknowledging that there is a greater force that is beyond ourselves and therefore humbling ourselves. Whoever is the most humble, wins because "whoever is first, shall be last, and whoever is last shall be first." As humans, our knowledge is so limited. Did you know that the earth produces a loud noise, but it's too loud for us to hear? Our senses are only good enough to survive on earth, but that only shows how little we actually know about our environment. God is often too big for us to understand which is why we have to trust Him and do what He says. Because we usually don't understand what goes on in our minds. How do you expect to understand God's thoughts??????!!!!!! Well, I hope I shined a little bit of light on the subject. I'm sorry if this was all old news and you've heard all this before. The fact is, I love being a Christian. I love the sense of family I get from my churchmembers and I cherish everything we've done together. Maybe if you experienced that kind of love, you would understand why Christians TOTALLY get it! Love, **** =)
Why do Muslims believe in Allah rather than nothing? No one denies that some churches put money into good causes. So do a number of other organizations. That has nothing to do with my page, though. That doesn't make the Bible suddenly become good and true. Einstein was not religious. I don't know about the other people you mentioned but it doesn't matter. I could bring forth a whole lineup of great men and women who were not Christians. This is an ad hominem argument and is useless to show that something is true or false. I don't doubt that you have seen what appeared to be incredible events. To ascribe these events to the Christian god though seems a bit premature: how do you know that there was not some natural explanation to what you saw, or that maybe some other god or a space alien did it? Helping other people? I don't know where this is coming from. If something is false, it seems it would be helpful and good to know it is false. Christianity to me is clearly false. It is not only false, but has been responsible for many wars and justified many evil institutions and practices such as slavery, the Inquisition, witch burning, pogroms, the Crusades, etc. Think about it closely. This doesn't make Christianity true. If your Dad is reformed, great, but him becoming a pastor does not suddenly make him a saint, or make Christianity true. I suggest you visit one of the many fine evolution sites on the web, particularly the Talk. Origins site linked to the picture of the gorilla on my website. Observed speciation is a fact, transitional fossils are a fact, evolution is a fact. Our bodies were designed not by a conscious entity but by evolution by natural selection. Why would a perfect being allow imperfect men to distort his perfect word? Why would a god allow it to appear that his Word was written merely by some bumbling, cruel, ignorant savages? Why do you believe that a book that appears to be the mistake of men is really the mistake of God? I don't get it. I disagree that the books of the Bible all have the same message. They look very much like they were thrown together by a bunch of pinheads. Even if they did have a similar "message," that would not mean the Bible was divinely inspired. Forgiven for what? The Church thrives on its ability to convince people that they are evil, sinful, fallen. Once it can convince people that they are guilty of something, it can then turn around and offer them salvation. It is all part of the con game. Guilty people are more malleable. You really are not forgiven. But don't worry-you never were guilty in the first place! This is your assumption, it is not something you can explain or show evidence for. Bald asssertions don't cut too much slack with me. I could just as easily say that the Great Green Leprachaun is watching over you and loves you even though you ignore him. I could then claim that this Great Green Leprachaun will torture you for all eternity after you die if you don't acknowledge him, but that you can avoid this gruesome fate by giving money to my church, the church of the Great Green Leprachaun. See how it works? If the God of the Bible was only said to kill people for their disbelief, there would not be very many Christians today. What the Bible asserts is that the Christian god will torture people for eternity for their disbelief. Eternal torture is a tad bit different than just death. You want me to believe in the Christian god, but you say our puny minds can not conceive of this god? Seems a little contradictory and disingenuous. I feel that I actually do understand your god quite well: it is simply a creation of primitive men, who mistook the natural forces and processes of nature for some super-powerful conscious entity. I don't doubt that you love being a Christian. I am sure that it is great to feel that you have a god's phone number and that you will live forever in bliss. That belief makes you feel really good. But this belief does not make Christianity true.Have a nice day.
Brooks
Subj: God is he for real or not.
Date: 97-03-12 20:35:51 EST Dear sir, I can some what see why you are confused by the bible. I do respect you for reading, and researching the bible for your self. That takes alot of time and self control, cuase even i get bored sometimes. The reason i stumbled accross you home page is cause i was looking for intersecion, which is when you pray for people like your self who do not or will not because of their closed mindedness believe the word. I skimmed some of those scriptures that you quoted. And i realized that most of the scriptures that you took from the old testament, you were reading out of context, and if you would read the whole chapter and try to understand the senerio, then you would find that God in not as offal as you think. Although all of you who do not believe in God, and Jesus, you will have judgement, and will be put into Hell. As for the scriptures you quoted in the New testiment, i fully agree with about the first 10 or so, they are talking about how if you do not belive that Jesus died on the cross and went to the grave and rose again, then you will have judgemnet , and be cast into Hell, were it will be so offal, it says in the Bible that in Hell their will be clashing, and naughing of teeth, the pain will be so offal that you teeth will crench. And Hell is forever for eternatiy. Basically the choice that the bible gives you is where you want to spend eternaty, in heavan, with the angles and the streets of gold(where their are no tears, and no pain), or Hell were it is eternal missury and pain. I do respect you and i would hope that you read this with and open heart. I hope that you would e-mail me back, i am not thrashing you for your beliefs, i just want to talk to you about them. I have to go cause i have to be somewhere in a half hour. But please right me back. Sincerly,
****(age 16)
p.s. I will be praying for you.
I appreciate your comments. I see the Bible as a collection of books written by men and nothing more. How and why am I supposed to see it otherwise? Christians cannot say why they believe it comes from a god. There are plenty of perfectly natural explanations for the BELIEF that it comes from a god. Thank you for your concern, but until Christians such as yourself can put forward rational arguments for their claim that the Bible is the Word of a god, I have a hard time taking them seriously. Threats of hellfire and promises of eternal life in heaven do not make Christian claims any more plausible. Sincerely,
BrooksSecond e-mail from the same person Subj: RE: Evil Biblical Stupidity
Date: 97-03-18I have heard lots of different people say this about the bible. But as for the books of mathew, mark, luke, and john. They all tell the same story from each persons view. the also wrote these books years after they were together as the appostles. So if they didn't write them, together, how would they tell the same story?? thats just something to think about.
It looks like the Gospels are copies of an oral tradition, with Mark being the first and the others copying his story to a greater or lesser degree. Early on there were many different Gospels-these four were eventually selected for the New Testament by the vote of a group of Church leaders. These stories were written 40 to 100 years after Jesus was supposed to have died and the Gospel writers are anonymous-the names Mark, Matthew, etc., were added by the Church. There is no reason to believe the authors were eyewitnesses to the events they describe. There is no reason to believe that the miraculous events they describe actually occurred. For more information about the origins of the Bible, go here.
Subj: You seem to be tolerant...
Date: 97-03-13 01:41:23 EST Hi there again. You seem to be at least a little tolerant of other religions. Why have you made it your mission in life to beat down Christians?
If Hinduism was the dominant religion where I live, I would probably be bashing Hinduism. People can spend their lives worshipping whatever they want, but if I think it is a waste of time and energy, I will be more than happy to tell them that. This is the way I feel about Christianity. I think it is false and a waste of time and harmful. I recommend you check some of the links on my links page to understand why I see things this way. Have a nice day. Sincerely,
Brooks
Subj: Lots of what you probably don't want...
Date: 97-03-18 23:25:11 EST I think that all the foresight to Christianity comes from what you might have impatience for...circular arguments, rationalizations (got to be rational), prophecy, internal personal experiences and so on and so forth...I just like the feeling I get from going into a church...someone called it an opiate of the masses...and if I didn't have the uncondfidence and unquestioning of my faith, I wonder... I do not have rational evidence or valid arguments... At the same time I am currently lost...but I believe faith is also a form of internal con fidence, gives some people something to hope for. I mean, are Christians bad people or is it a personal sham...why do you believe as you do... faith in no faith... Send an e-mail back, I might have something to argue avbout or think about...now if it is not true, I will certainly benefit from this discourse...11:20 among other excuses is a bad time to even think... I do wonder if there is more out there than we realize, I just can't explain what magick trick leads me to believe as I do...
Thank you for your e-mail to the"Christianity, Bogus Beyond Belief" webpage. I don't doubt for one minute that your faith makes you feel good. No disagreement there. Do you feel, though, that your Christian belief makes you more morally virtuous than people without the Christian belief? If it does, think about how this may be affecting your acceptance of Christian assertions. I am not saying Christians in general are bad people. I feel that they are mostly good people in spite of their beliefs. I AM saying that Christians are making a mistake in accepting what their church and what their Bible tells them. And I am explaining why I feel that way. You say that Christianity gives people something to hope for. Sure, eternal life with Jehovah for themselves and eternal torture for the rest of humanity. This is a sad thing to base one's life on, whether or not it happens to be true. And it seems very reasonable to believe that it is not true. Your statement appears to be a variation on that tired Christian refrain, "But if there is no God, what is the purpose and meaning of life?" This is really a red herring. The real question is this: If there is no God, what is the purpose and what is the meaning of Christianity? I hope this has cleared things up.Brooks
Subj: First--timer
Date: 97-03-20 18:57:04 EST Great site; I love it--keep up the good work. Christians are impossible to talk to--but I have a fantasy that I will be able to cause one to wakeup--someday, maybe,--na, not much of a chance. One of the fundamental tools of a real Christian is anger. If you ask one something that they can't answer, then they get angry. As far as they are concerned, they showed you.My philosophy is unique to me. Maybe I could be called an athestic/christian. I do have a staunch following of one--me. Well, let's call the athestic part, skeptism and the christian part, faith in an invisible force--I wouldn't call it God--maybe spirit. Anyway, I could go on for hours. Just wanted to thank you for this great site--I'll see you often.
Response I have the same fantasy, but it will probably remain a fantasy.I have heard Christians call atheists angry people. I have to wonder if this isn't projection on their part. It seems that people who worship a diety which promises to broil alive two thirds of the earth's population are really the angry ones.Glad you enjoyed the site.Cheers,
Brooks
Subj: As God says, "Come, let us reason together."
Date: 97-03-31 00:32:14 EST To you - who is understandably misinformed: I would like to understand your reason for having a web site to express yourself of a personal unhappiness. I know there are many like you but I want you to understand completely - God loves YOU! He made a way for you to enjoy the eternal bliss of those who love Him - you to could enjoy this future blissful eternal existance. If Christianity is bogus then the Lord died for a lie and all who knew Him and were witness to the many miracles He performed gave their lives for a lie - which, by the way, made them loosing their for a lie - would you do such a thing? As I said, God loves you as He did Paul when he was in the forefront in the job of murdering the Christians. I would suggest he was far more a serious stumbling block than you - he was actually murdering them - do you? He, as you may know, became a devoted worker when he finally understood the Good News. God loves you - come - express your love for Him and enjoy a life that is so glorious you will kick yourself for not seeking His love before this.Response Thank you for your e-mail to the Christianity, Bogus Beyond Belief webpage. You tell me that "God" loves me. I would like to understand how you know that such a thing as "God" exists and then how you know that it loves me. I am mystified as to how you came about this knowledge. Your assertions about miracle claims found in the Bible do not impress me, since I do not believe they relate to any actual events. I think they are just stories, and nothing more. And just as you are not converted by the miracle claims of Hindus, Muslims or Buddhists, I am not swayed by your allusions to miraculous Bible stories. Now, if you could move mountains, raise the dead, drink poison and not get hurt, fly through the air unaided, etc.-that would certainly get my attention. Have a great day. Sincerely,
Brooks
Subj: The Con game of the Church
Date: 97-04-04 10:12:06 EST Wonderful website. I just went through the letters and I admire your patience. You do realize that Christians are impossible to argue with. In the end they always fall back on "the inscrutable ways of the Lord". Ask them this: If god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he knew excatly how the world would turn out before he created it. This makes god directly responsible for everything that has happened and everything that will happen in the world. he knew about it beforehand, and he could have altered it but he didnīt. Then why is there so much pain and suffering in the world. It's real simple. God wanted it that way. He is responsible. So much for an almighty god. But in my personal view, this whole christianity thing is an illuminati type plot. I mean look at the evidence. I admit I have not read the bible (I get bored to sleep every time). But read this: Let's hypothesize that I am an extremely rich and powerful land-owner in the years following the fall of Rome. I believe in Mammon and Baal, I would like to get richer and more powerful and I detest religious ceremonies for their waste of resources (human and animal sacrifieces, time spent in frivolity by the masses etc). Then along comes this christian religion. It's brilliant. No more sacrifices, no more frivolity by the masses, and the best part is that the religion preaches forgiveness towards evil, that self-sacrifice will lead to eternal life and the rich and miserly will be forever damned. It claims that the meek will inherit the earth. What this means exactly is that I can exploit my subjects even more than I did before. I can make life better for myself and my family at the expense of the masses, and the masses will be pleased with this, knowing that they are earning eternal life after this one and I will be forever damned. Convinced? Think about it.
Thanks for the e-mail to the Christianity, Bogus Beyond Belief webpage. I agree that the god of the Bible has attributes which are totally incompatible with one another. It is supposedly an all-knowing, all powerful, all good god who foresees that Eve would eat the fruit of the tree, and yet this outrages him when it happens, like it's a surprise (what a ludicrous story to begin with!). It is an all-knowing, all powerful, all good god who knows, before he creates the earth, that it would not be to his liking and he will have to drown everyone, and yet he creates it anyway. It is an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god who creates malaria, typhoid, smallpox, cholera, birth defects, and who sits idly by while people are tortured and killed every day. It is an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good god who realizes that two-thirds of the earth's humans will never accept him as being real, but creates them anyway and then feels compelled to torture them for eternity because of their opinions. It is clear that the Church wanted their god to have these great attributes but didn't think through all the logical problems these attributes entailed. The god of Christianity makes about as much sense as a square circle. But then, like you said, God's ways are inscrutable. I can see how the teaching of the meek inheriting the earth has benefited kings and rulers for 2000 years. People believing this will happily live as slaves, thinking that they will be rewarded handsomely in an afterlife. It is obvious that Christianity has been used to maintain control over people for centuries. Today it does not have as much power and is mostly an untaxed business, peddling eternal life. Unfortunately, no one can ever complain to the Church when its product is not delivered. I agree that debating about religion rarely changes the beliefs of people who are fanatical about their position. However, debate does highlight and contrast the issues for those who are still making up their minds. Have a good one. Sincerely,
Brooks