Christian radio show call-in #2
What's the frequency, Kenneth?
This transcript is from a call in to a now defunct Seattle Christian radio program I listened to in the 90s. The name of the show was Street Talk and the show's host was a guy named Lief Moi. The program lasted three hours and the host encouraged people to call in and ask questions. In fact, the interaction between the host and the callers was the main focus of the show. The host and his sidekick, a practicing minister named Mark Driscoll, were fundamentalists and were as harsh on Christians who didn't share their particular brand of fundamentalism as they were on atheists. They believed that the condition of the human race was one of "utter depravity." They thought that evolution was absolute nonsense, though I heard that Jefferey Jay Lowder was on their show years ago and embarrassed the hell out of the host by demonstrating the overwhelming evidence for evolution. Because I called in to the program numerous times back in 1994-95, I was invited on as a guest atheist. In 1996, another atheist and I were invited on the program and discussed various topics with the host and callers for three hours. The following week, Mr. Moi and Mr. Driscoll put on a program titled "Atheists: part 2" or something similar, which was an effort at damage control from the previous week. After 1996 I occasionally tuned into the show and if the topic was interesting, I would call in. Since Mr. Moi and his good buddy Mark liked to talk about the utter depravity of the human race, I enjoyed trying to get them to explain the utter depravity of the Bible. The following transcript represents my final call to the program-Mr. Moi didn't want me to call anymore after this. Apparently he did not like discussing the holiness and righteousness of stoning women to death if their virginity is in question on their wedding nights. The topic of this particular program was "A False Virginity"-the show was a tirade against premarital oral sex. Oh, the humanity! Here is another, earlier call I made to the program.
"A False Virginity"
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radio call-in Street Talk, KNGW AM 820 Seattle, WA, USA August 1, 1999. |
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| bold font: caller Brooks T. |
...with bonus commentary from Lief! |
normal font: host Lief Moi |
| ...1-800-955-8200 is the phone number. Haven't heard from him for a long time, but we know he pops in every now and then...How ya doing Brooks? Hey, pretty good, Lief. How are you? Good. Yeah, it has been an interesting topic tonight. Yeah. Yeah...Umm, I was wondering if you think that, uh, not being a virgin when you're married is a capital offense? Er.. No. Okay. No. Huh. Well that's... I think that under the old theocratic rule of God, in the Old Testament, yeah, it would be. Well, yeah. There is a quote. Uh, I was wondering if I, uh, could read it off to you. From the Christian god. (laughs) From the Christian god? Oh yeah. As in killing those who are not virgins? Yeah. Yeah, sure. Deuteronomy 22:20. Uh huh. If your listeners would kindly turn to their pages to... (laughs) Deuteronomy 22:20. They probably don't have their Bibles with them, but... Ahhh, they're not true Christians then. (pause) Uh, the quote is, 'But if this thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then you shall bring her..out..young woman...to the door of her father's house...' Right. '...and the men of the city shall stone her to death with stones.' Yes. Huh. Absolutely. Can you explain that to me? Sure. I'd be happy to. What's that all about? I mean that is a direct quote from God. So what's going on there? What it is...and this is for, uh, this is not for..(stutters)..excuse me, this is not an explanation for Brooks, because... Well, I mean just an explanation for anyone who has some... I want to explain it to the audience... ...sense of decency...you know, care for other people. In understanding God, you first have to understand that He is righteous, and Holy, of which, you don't accept. So that, the whole... (garbled) Just a second. Brooks shhhh. Quiet. (laughs) you want me to answer the question or not? Yeah. Okay. You don't believe in God, therefore you can't understand, nor agree with the characteristics of God. If you believed in God, then you could agree with his characteristics. But, but because you don't, you can't. Alright? Now, saying that...if God is God, then God is holy, and God is righteous, and God is pure. And...from what we have, as far as the explanation of what took place in the Old Testament-we had a holy God, a righteous God establishing His kingdom, a theocracy here on earth. And under that theocracy the rule of law was the rule of God's righteousness and... (garbled) Just a second...and holiness. Therefore sin was punished based upon God's holiness and righteousness. Okay, you're using like 'holy and righteousness' over and over and over again-but what is holy and righteous about stoning a woman to death because some men... Because any man, any man or woman who commits... But, no, no, it doesn't say anything about men, it says specifically women. Well, yes, but... It says absolutely nothing about men... But in other... ...anywhere in the Bible does it say anything... But in other... ...about men not being virgins being stoned to death. ...in other... It only applies to women. ...in other, in other instances, if a son did not obey his mother and father... It doesn't say anything specifically about men... Brooks... ...not being virgins... Brooks.... ...being brought to the door of their father's house and being stoned to death. Brooks, Brooks. I am just, I am just relating... I know that..I know that-I know that. But if a young man did not obey his mother and father, he would be stoned to death. But why doesn't it say that? I don't know why. Maybe because it never... I don't know... ...happened. No, because you are assuming things here. You're assuming, you're assuming, you're making an argument from silence. And as a good atheist you should know you shouldn't do that. It's bad logic, okay? Well, if it doesn't say it... Let me, let me answer your question again. Okay? (pause) Is that all right? Well, you're not really answering...all you're saying is that God is holy and righteous, God is holy and righteous. You're not really answering the question. The question is, the answer to the question is this: all sin is deserving of death. Is, is... That is the answer to the question: all sin is deserving of death. Is not..so not being a virgin when you're married is deserving of death? In the sight of God! If you're a woman specifically, not if you're a man. Yes, in the sight of God, yes. But because God is merciful and loving... But why don't we enforce... He sent His Son... ...that today? ...to take away your sins, Brooks. But why don't we enforce that today? Because we are not under a theocracy. Well why not? I mean, it seems like if that was determined to be good enough for the ancient people in Israel, it would apply more so today. No, obviously it wasn't good enough, that's why God sent His Son. So do you personally believe that it is morally righteous to stone women to death if some men in a town think that maybe she is not a virgin on her marriage night? Of course not. Well...that seems to fly directly in the face of what God believes. No-no. Huh. No...because God sent his Son. To die for our sin. That's the answer to the whole question...is Christ. He died for what sin? Your sin. And my sin. Huh. See, see the whole, the whole establishment of, of Israel, and the Law, and the way that it was carried out was to show that man was utterly helpless without God, without God's forgiveness though Christ. That was the whole purpose of it. So... So, so, yeah, you're absolutely right, the theocracy was not perfect. And it was not good, because Man was sinful. But so... God... There are... God, God brought... But there are conditions under which God would see fit to have a woman stoned to death because some men thought maybe she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night? That is considered holy and righteous by God? I can tell you this... I mean, does that make sense to you? Yes, yes it does. Just thinking, just thinking about it-does that make sense to you? Yes. It does make sense to you? Yes! Really? Why, why should a woman be stoned to death for... Same reason a man should be. But why? Same reason a murderer should be. But... The same reason, the same reason a liar should be. How do you equate, how do you equate somebody... The same reason... How do you equate...murder... The same reason any... ...with not being a virgin? ...sinner... Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. How do you equate murder with not being a virgin? What is the, what is the equation? What is the equivalency? The equation is not, the equivalency is not on any standard that is, that is... Not on any standard... Brooks! ...that any reasonable person can imagine. Brooks, if you do that again, I am hanging up on you and you will never be allowed to call in again. All right? Oh no! I'm serious! Oh, I'm, I'm terrified. I'd just, I'd like you to explain the morality... Brooks! ...of stoning someone to death for... Brooks! Do you wanna, do you want to call in any more and talk? Well, I just want you to answer the question, I really don't care... Then shut your mouth...for a moment! Okay, well can you answer... Thank you. ...the question? I'm dead serious. I am happy to have you on this show. I've had you on this show... I don't care, I don't care if I get to call in or not, I just want you... (garbled) ...to answer the question. You just want to be an imbecile. That's all. I just want you to answer the question. I don't, I don't understand...it doesn't make sense to me. Okay, Brooks... (five second pause) Can you answer the question? Yes I can. Thanks. All right.....They are not comparable-losing your virginity, not being a virgin and being a murderer are not comparable. Thanks. As far as degrees. As far as one being worse than or better than. But it is sin. Both are sin. Both are evil. And both fall short of the perfection and holiness of God. Therefore, they both deserve death! Okay, so... That is the answer to your question. I know you don't like it. I know you don't believe it. But that is the answer. Fine. I mean if that's what you believe, that's fine. That is the answer! Yes! That is what I believe. Okay. And that is what I have said for year upon year upon year. (laughs) So when are you going to...I mean... I just, I don't understand the morality of killing somebody because you don't think she is a... I know you don't understand it! I don't think I ever will. I just.. You probably won't. I just, I can't understand... Cuz you don't understand the holiness of God. I don't understand what is holy about killing someone because you don't think she is a virgin. I mean what... Because sin is sin... What... ..and sin is evil. That's why. What's the sin, what is the sin of not having, or not appearing to have a hymen on your wedding night? I mean what, what is the sin, what is the...define sin. What does that mean? Sin is....is not....being... (burp) Are you going to start talking again or are you going to let me answer the question? Just clearing my throat. Okay...Sin is anything that, that...(sigh)...trying to explain it rather than just the, the, the usual Christian clichés. Okay. Um...it is anything that is, does not operate in the function in which, in which God created it to operate...Okay? If an apple tree made bananas, that would be sin. It would be evil. Is in vitro cert...fertilization sin? What a stupid question. Well, it is not operating the way in which... I mean what a stupid question. Is it or not? I have no idea. Okay...I'm just, I don't know if you may have proposed killing people who... I have no idea, I mean Brooks, come on...Don't go from..from...some sense to complete nonsense....okay? I mean is it natural to put people on the moon, or...? Anything, anything that does operate in which God created it to operate is sin. God created a man to be with a woman, to have sex, and to enjoy it, to make babies, for the rest of their lives. To enjoy each other. When two people have sex outside of marriage, it is contrary to the way God created us to be. The perfect, the perfect creation. The perfect way in which humanity was created to live. Therefore, it deserves death. Okay so anything outside of... Yes. So anyone who is not married who has sex deserves to be killed? Or? (pause) sound of something dropping Or...what? I don't know Brooks. Okay. I mean I've only answered that question ten, fifteen times tonight and you just keep asking it over and over. So obviously,...obviously Brooks... (garbled) Well, you just defined anything outside of marriage as sin... No, Brooks... ...and you said sin is deserving of death. So it would seem, logically, to follow that anyone who is outside of a marriage who is having sex deserves to be killed. Brooks, I am going to, ahhh, I'm going to take...the recommendations of many, many a friend, many people... (garbled) ...I have, ah, I have, I have chosen, uhmm, for many years to ahh, to...bring you on this show, uhhmm, to talk with you, ahhh, to extend some sense of, uh, civility... It just shows that... ...and friendship. you cannot answer the question, and you're not comfortable... No, what it shows, Brooks, what it shows, Brooks... Just that you are not comfortable answering hard quest...I thought this show was about answering tough questions-and you can't do it. You can take softballs from people who share you belief system but you can't answer hard questions about your belief system. Well frankly Brooks, I have answered every question you've asked... You haven't satisfactorily answered them... Oh, just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're not satisfactory... I don't think any... Brooks! ...reasonable, moral person would agree with your answers. They don't make any sense. Okay. Morally... So, I'll... ...or logically. ...tell you what, Brooks. Don't call anymore. That's fine, I just...I wanted you to answer the question but you just showed your audience that you can't answer the questions. Okay. All right. Have a nice night, man. Okay. Take care. Bye bye. Bye. |
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